Scott Woodward:
This is the Church’s first large-scale attempt to integrate spiritual and temporal governance through a formal business structure, and it’s not going to be the last.

Casey Griffiths:
We don’t see a big difference between doing something spiritual and doing something temporal.

Scott Woodward:
What we can do now is powerful, and that is undeniable.

Casey Griffiths:
We strive to sacrifice to help others, but we also strive to be independent.

Scott Woodward:
And that’s wise counsel for all of us. The purpose of all of this is to enable the Church to stand independent, not be subject to anyone on earth in order to prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus.

Casey Griffiths:
I’ve had the wrong attitude about this the whole time.

Scott Woodward:
Hello, Casey. Welcome back.

Casey Griffiths:
We’re back. And after that deep dive into the Book of Revelation, we’re kind of coming back down to Earth to talk about some temporal concerns that the Saints were worried about in Sections 78 through 80.

Scott Woodward:
78, we got this revelation about what’s called the United Firm, sometimes codenamed the United Order. We’ll talk about that. And then Section 79 and 80 are to two individuals. We got Jared Carter and a guy named Stephen Burnett. So let’s get into it. Tell us a little bit about where Section 78 is coming from. Give us our first C, Casey.

Casey Griffiths:
Big part of the context to understand Section 78 is that you have to know that during this particular period of early Church history, the leaders of the Church were constantly working to balance the needs of the two Church centers, one’s in Ohio, in Kirtland, and one’s in Missouri. And this revelation directs Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, and Newel K. Whitney to travel to Missouri to help organize several business ventures of the Church. So in July 1831, there’s a revelation, which we already talked about, that commanded Sidney Gilbert to… And by the way, Sidney Gilbert is the business partner of Newel K. Whitney. They commanded Sidney Gilbert to establish a store in Independence, Missouri, to raise funds to, these are the words of the revelation, “to buy lands for the good of the Saints and to plant them in their inheritances.” That’s Section 57:8. So on one part, we got to figure out how to get the Saints on firm financial footing in Missouri. The second major concern that’s quite pressing at this time is the need to raise funds to publish Joseph Smith’s revelations, to produce the Book of Commandments, which becomes the Doctrine and Covenants.

Casey Griffiths:
We mentioned this earlier, but at a conference held in November 1831, several Church leaders were charged with the—this is what the Lord says— “sacred writings, which they have entrusted to them to carry to Zion.” And a revelation given during that conference created what we call the Literary Firm, which was a consecrated effort of several Church leaders, this includes Joseph Smith, and Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, Martin Harris, and W. W. Phelps, to oversee the publications of the revelations. Funds raised from this venture were to be placed into a storehouse, and the leaders were instructed that the benefits of this venture should be consecrated unto the inhabitants of Zion and unto their generations. That’s Section 70. So this revelation, Section 78, directed Church leaders to organize these ventures into one firm. And originally, it’s called the United Firm, but the name was later edited in the revelations to be called the Order or the United Order. You can see it referenced there in several different sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, like Section 78 and Section 82, 92. That name is used several times in Section 104. And then Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon, Newel K. Whitney, are supposed to travel to Missouri to sit in council with the Saints which are in Zion and to organize the members of the Church according to the revelations that they’ve received.

Casey Griffiths:
Now, there’s one other amazing thing about Section 78 that we don’t want to overlook, too. This is where the codenames in the Doctrine and Covenants start to come up, which-

Scott Woodward:
The codenames.

Casey Griffiths:
The codenames have been taken out of our current Doctrine and Covenants. But when Section 78 was first published in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, there’s different codenames used for different figures. So for instance, the codename Enoch was used for Joseph Smith. Pelogoram was used for Sidney Rigdon. Ahashdah was used for Newel K. Whitney. This is awesome stuff. The codenames do not appear in the original revelation, but Elder Orson Pratt later explains why the codenames were used in the first place. He said, “It was thought wisdom in consequence of the persecution of our enemies in Kirtland and some of the regions roundabout that the names should be changed.” And Joseph was called, for instance, Baurak Ale, which was a Hebrew word meaning God bless you. He was also called Gazelem, being the person to whom the Lord had given the Urim and Thummim. Sidney Rigdon was given the name Baneemy. And the revelation where it read so many dollars into the treasure was changed to talents, and the city of New York was changed to Cainhannoch.

Casey Griffiths:
Now, once the need to conceal these identities had passed, the codenames were removed from the Doctrine and Covenants and replaced with the original names. So just kind of a cool little quirk to this Section. And by the way, their fears are totally justified. Later on, their enemies are going to completely organize their efforts to torpedo the Kirtland Bank. That happens a couple of years later. So knowing that these revelations are going to be published in Church periodicals and that they’ll be available to the public, they felt that it was a good idea to conceal the identities of the people in these revelations so that the enemies of the Church couldn’t use it against them.

Scott Woodward:
And that’s primarily because these are dealing with financial matters. Is that correct? It’s like-

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
They’re trying to obfuscate the names so that the people can’t be taken to court. They’re changing it from United Firm, which kind of sounds like a financial institution, to United Order, which kind of just sounds like a spiritual church group or whatever. This is all about obfuscation in order to avoid litigation, probably. You could say it like that.

Casey Griffiths:
It’s a smart move on their part. But again, because the circumstances have passed, in later editions of the Doctrine and Covenants, and especially in the 2013 edition, which is what we’re using right now, the codenames have been removed. Just a neat little strange detail in the Doctrine and Covenants that gives us a feel for the times they were living in.

Scott Woodward:
As a young kid, I think I had a really old pair of scriptures now that I think about it. My Doctrine and Covenants had all the codenames in it. I remember reading this section as a kid, just randomly opening up, you know, as I did, randomly opening and reading a section to check my spirituality box. I remember being fascinated by Section 78, I didn’t know what it was talking about, but the names were cool.

Casey Griffiths:
I remember doing the same thing. I read a Doctrine and Covenants at my grandma’s house, and the codenames were there. I don’t know if we want to dive too deep into what the codenames mean. I mean, calling Joseph Smith Enoch and stuff like that. But it’s just kind of a unique aspect from Church history that shows there were real stakes to them publishing these revelations and sometimes concerns, like legal concerns, financial concerns that caused them to be cautious when they put these things out there.

Scott Woodward:
I remember Truman Madsen was signing books at the BYU Book Store during Education Week one year, and he had just founded what he called the Gazelem Organization. I said, Gazelem, huh? And he said, Yes. Do you know what Gazelem is? And I said, I do. Isn’t that Joseph Smith’s codename? And he’s like, It is. Anyway, it’s just Truman Madsen picking up on this, creating an organization around the codename of Joseph Smith. Anyway, fun. Kind of pointless today, but it had a point in that day. Well, let’s dive in then to the content of Section 78. Okay, so the Lord opens this way, quote, “The Lord spake unto Joseph Smith, Jr., saying, Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God, who are ordained unto the high priesthood of my church, who have assembled yourselves together.” And this is a group of high priests who is assembled together in Kirtland. They have not yet gone to Missouri. In fact, Section 82 of the Doctrine and Covenants, for those who are paying attention to all this, is kind of the corollary to Section 78. They go together. So when we cover Section 82 next week, we’ll be referring back to Section 78.

Scott Woodward:
They’re very good to talk about and to study together. So we might be doing a little bit of that today. Verse 2, “Listen to the counsel of him who has ordained you from on high, who shall speak in your ears words of wisdom, that salvation may be unto you in that thing which you have presented before me, saith the Lord. For verily I say unto you, the time has come and is now at hand, and behold and lo, it must needs be that there be an organization of my people in regulating and establishing the affairs of the storehouse for the poor of my people, both in this place and in the land of Zion.” Now I got to pause right there because there’s a phrase that’s in our current Doctrine and Covenants that was not in the original. The phrase right there in verse three that says, “In regulating and establishing the affairs of the storehouse,” is not what it originally said. It originally said, “It must needs be that there be an organization of the literary and mercantile establishments of my church.” And again, that referred to the original group of leaders that were in the Literary Firm and those in the mercantile establishment.

Scott Woodward:
That’s the Newel K. Whitney store in Kirtland and this Sidney Gilbert store in Missouri. And so those are kind of the three that’s going to be fused together in something of a joint venture, if you will, by Section 78. So in the earliest revelation, it’s talking really explicitly about the literary and mercantile establishments. But again, to protect Newel K. Whitney’s store, Sidney Gilbert’s store, and the Literary Firm, this is obfuscated to say, “in regulating and establishing the affairs of the storehouse.” Going on, verse 4, “For a permanent and everlasting establishment and order unto my church to advance the cause which you have espoused, the salvation of man and to the glory of your Father who is in heaven.” Okay, so right here from the beginning, we have the Lord directing them to bring together to organize Newel K. Whitney’s store, Sidney Gilbert’s store, and the Literary Firm, which is the printing press over in Missouri, and it’s those who are involved in Kirtland in receiving and editing the revelations then send them to Missouri. All of this, all the money-making efforts of the Church here, are being put together into a joint venture here. It’s called an order here in the obfuscated version, but the word in the original is firm, a Literary Firm or a United Firm, rather.

Scott Woodward:
So this firm, known as the United Firm or the United Order or the Order of Enoch, covenanted with each other to live in accordance with principles of the law of consecration, where they would give of their business resources to help ensure, for instance, the printing of scripture and the establishment of land in Zion, and purchasing, and those kinds of things. In exchange, their family would be provided for from the funds raised from the sale of scriptures, and the surplus funds would be used to operate the Church and to purchase land for the Saints in Ohio and Missouri. We’re hearkening all the way back to Section 42, where the Lord said, This is how we want to build up the temporal part of the Church in order for these spiritual purposes to be established. One more thing we should say before we go on to verse 5 is that by the time the Doctrine and Covenants was published in 1835, the United Firm had already been reorganized, kind of disorganized and reorganized by Doctrine and Covenants 104, which kind of fractures the United Firm. They kind of become ununited, disunited, and it provides individual members with specific stewardships, and they’re no longer a joint venture.

Scott Woodward:
So it doesn’t really last for super long. It’s just two years up and down, and it’s done. Even though the Lord said here that he wanted this to be an “everlasting and permanent establishment,” verse 4. It doesn’t actually do that for reasons that we’ll get into as we cover Section 104. However, Casey, the principles that are found here in this revelation are still very valuable, and they’re used by the Church to guide it in its attempts to live out the law of consecration. So the revelation is going to be revised, and there’s going to be new phrasing that better fits the general needs of the Church. The principles are going to continue to guide the Church, even to this day.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, I would say that the principles and ideas here are everlasting, but that the United Firm is kind of an iteration of the law of consecration that shows that they could be a little flexible in how they arrange it. Like if the whole Church isn’t ready to enter into it, let’s have this small group of really committed members enter into a consecrated order so that we can get this thing done. And I would say that and other iterations of the law of consecration are still really common and that the counsel here is eternal. For instance, let’s go verse 5, “That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and earthly things also for the obtaining of heavenly things. For if you’re not equal in earthly things, you cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things. For if you will, that I give unto you a place in the celestial world, you must prepare yourselves for doing the things which I have commanded and required of you.” So the thing we’re striving for here is to make sure that everybody’s okay, that everybody is provided for, that they have the things that they need. And he’s saying this is a foreshadowing of the celestial world, where we’re not going to worry as much about temporal things.

Casey Griffiths:
Everybody’s going to be taken care of. So again, in the midst of what seems to be this very contemporary concern the Saints are dealing with, they’re laying down principles which are still used and utilized in the Church, which is, hey, if everybody sacrifices a little, then everybody can have enough for them to survive on, which is still how we do fast offerings, tithing, and other financial offerings that exist in the Church. I want to emphasize, too, in this revelation, the Lord says that the establishment of the law of consecration is necessary, this is his wording in verse 4, “for the salvation of man.” And this might seem like it’s a little dramatic, but these verses explain why consecration was and still remains such a big deal to the Church. In fact, I think most people, unless they’ve really closely read the Doctrine and Covenants, don’t get what a big deal it is. Dieter F. Uchtdorf said it this way, “Like two sides of a coin, the temporal and the spiritual are inseparable. Unfortunately, there are those who overlook the temporal because they consider it less important. They treasure the spiritual while minimizing the temporal. While it is important to have our thoughts inclined towards heaven, we miss the essence of our religion if our hands are not also inclined towards our fellow men.”

Casey Griffiths:
So again, this idea that, hey, the Church is just here for spiritual things. It’s here to help connect us to God and give us the Spirit, which it definitely is. Nobody is disputing that. But Elder Uchtdorf seems to be saying, hey, sometimes we neglect the fact that it’s hard for a person to feel the Spirit if they don’t know where their next meal is coming from. And it can be difficult for a person to connect to God or to serve in a spiritual place like the temple if they’re worried about their temporal welfare and those that they love. That’s kind of what the Lord is teaching these verses. To be equal in heavenly things, we have to strive to be united in earthly things. And those who cling too tightly to their temporal goods might have difficulty in living the laws of the gospel and gaining exaltation. So this is why consecration was and still is a sacred covenant for Church members, especially those that have made temple covenants. The Lord warns that those who abuse or violate the law of consecration will lose their office and standing and be turned over to the buffetings of Satan.

Casey Griffiths:
In fact, to take a look here, he says, “Otherwise, Satan seeketh to turn their hearts away from the truth. They become blinded and understand not the things which are prepared for them.” So he’s saying, Hey, this is one of those things that does kind of steer you into wrong territory if you’re too obsessed with the things that you have and you’re not worried about how to help other people. In particular, it seems like the Lord is also issuing a stern warning to those who who might misuse sacred funds like those that belong to the Church or take advantage of Church members for their financial gain. That all these people will be subject to severe penalties. The Kirtland Bank and even things that happen in the Church today illustrate the truth of all this, right? That when we use temporal affairs for our own gain, especially if we mingle spiritual things in with the spiritual promises, we get into big trouble, and it causes a lot of fracture and problems in the Church.

Scott Woodward:
And the Lord is clear here that with this original group, the members of this joint venture called the United Firm, this isn’t just supposed to be like a nod and a handshake. He says, verse 8, he says, “They are to be joined together in this order,” read firm. And then verse 11, he says, “Wherefore a commandment I give unto you,” this group, “to prepare and organize yourselves by a bond or everlasting covenant that cannot be broken. And he who breaketh it,” he warns, “shall lose his office and standing in the Church and be delivered over to the buffetings of Satan.” Well, like I said, two years go by and covenants have been broken and the United Firm does not stand, which does not negate the truthfulness of the principles outlined in Section 78. But It does suggest that this takes pure-hearted people to be able to live this. We all have some pureness, we all have some impurity. For some factors outside of their control, honestly, to give them a little bit of a break here, we’re going to have some enemy persecution that destroys two-thirds of the United Firm over in Missouri. And all we have left is the Newel K. Whitney store and some properties in Kirtland.

Scott Woodward:
And so we do have some outside influence that’s going to break this up. But there also is some covenant breaking that occurs as well. This is a little bit of foreshadowing there in verse 11, but this was meant to be a covenant and a bond that could not be broken without having some consequences. And those consequences totally will play out in the history of the Church here. Let’s head over to verse 13. The Lord says, “Behold, this is the preparation wherewith I prepare you, and the foundation and the ensample which I given to you, whereby you may accomplish the commandments which are given you, that through my providence, notwithstanding the tribulation which shall descend upon you, that the church may stand independent above all other creatures beneath the celestial world.” That’s a really significant verse, verse 14, which highlights part of the intention behind all the money-making efforts of the Church, whether it’s asking for donations from its members or engaging in business ventures like Section 78 is outlining here. The purpose of all of this is to enable the Church to stand independent, not be subject to anyone on earth, so that we can move independently and execute the purposes of the Church independently in order to prepare for the Second Coming of Jesus.

Scott Woodward:
It’s like, this is awesome. In Joseph Smith’s day, this did not happen. But in our day, Casey, we say it humbly, but we say it truly. We have achieved financial independence as a church. We are in a position now where we can do this, and we’re watching it happen. We’re watching the Church be established throughout the world with temples, with the missionary program, with Church universities, with humanitarian efforts, like what we’re able to do independently without needing permission or taking out loans from others, getting into debt. What we can do now is powerful, and that is undeniable. Right here’s the seed for that. Right here’s the seed for that, verse 14.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. I mean, the number of temples being built in the last couple of years is staggering, right? But we’re able to do that because we have the resources right now to do that. And what the Lord advises for the Church here, I think also the leaders of the Church have advised for the members of the Church, too. Ever since these early revelations are given. For instance, here’s Brigham Young. He counseled Church members, “Ye Latter-day Saints, learn to sustain yourselves. If you cannot obtain all that you wish for today, learn to do without that which you cannot purchase and pay for, and bring your minds into subjection that you must and will live within your means.” In other words, yes, we want to be equal in all things, and we sacrifice so that others can have things. But the end goal here is for us to be independent, too, to also be able to take care of ourselves. That’s one of those contraries that Joseph Smith brings up that we have to prove, which is we strive to sacrifice to help others, but we also strive to be independent, that we have to kind of hedge back and forth between those two.

Scott Woodward:
That counsel from Brigham Young reminds me of this counsel from President Hinckley, much more recently. He taught this. He said, quote, “In the financial operations of the Church, we have observed two basic and fixed principles. Number one, the Church will live within its means. It will not spend more than it receives. And two, a fixed percentage of the income will be set aside to build reserves against what might be called a possible rainy day. For years,” he continues, “the Church has taught its membership the principle of setting aside a reserve of food as well as money to take care of emergency needs that might arise. We are only trying to follow the same principle for the Church as a whole,” he says. Close quote. I think that’s awesome. And we’ve done a whole series, Casey, on the finances of the Church, and we know that this was not always so, what President Hinckley is saying here. That came from some hard-earned lessons that we ought not spend beyond what we have. We ought to set aside for a rainy day. And so when President Hinckley said this, we were in a very good position as a church, and we have been ever since. And that’s wise counsel for all of us.

Casey Griffiths:
And in defense of those early Church leaders and members who did struggle financially, they were dealing with a lot. Like starting any major venture, the earliest years are going to be the tough where you’re getting the foundation built and established. But today we benefit from what these faithful early Saints did. Now, lest you think that this is all just about this entire section, Section 78, is just about finances, we do start to get into some interesting stuff starting in verse 15 and 16. The Lord says that “you may come unto the crown prepared for you, and be made rulers over my kingdom, saith the Lord God, the holy one of Zion, who hath established the foundations of Adam-ondi-Ahman.” That’s the first time that word appears in the Doctrine and Covenants, but it’s complicated. And then he goes on, “Who hath appointed Michael your prince and established his feet, and set him on high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life.” So we go from the down-to-earth temporal, let’s make sure this is happening, to kind of the lofty, here’s the spiritual, here’s the prophetic reason why this is occurring.

Casey Griffiths:
In fact, let’s clarify a couple of things. The last clause of these two verses, verse 15 and all of verse 16, were added by Joseph Smith during the publication of the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants. By that time, Joseph Smith has received a revelation about Adam-ondi-Ahman, “being the place where Adam gathered his posterity to give them a final blessing before his death.” That’s in Section 107:53-57, which we’re going to deal with when we get there. But that was actually part of a patriarchal blessing that was given Joseph Smith, Sr. and Joseph Smith takes that title, that idea of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and places it in here. And then later on, he’s also going to receive another revelation. This is Section 116 that identifies Spring Hill, Missouri, as the place of Adam-ondi-Ahman. He also ties this directly in these verses to the archangel Michael. The Lord identifies Michael as being second only to Jesus Christ himself or the Holy One. And this is an interesting theme through the Doctrine and Covenants. Section 27 is where Michael is identified as Adam, and this speaks to how we see Adam and by extension, humanity.

Casey Griffiths:
See, while many faiths disparage Adam for his role in the Fall, the revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants, including this, would uphold him as Michael, the angel who fought against Satan and his minions in premortality, is described in the Book of Revelation, and is an important figure when it comes to passing priesthood authority onto his children. In fact, this is the way Joseph Smith talks about Adam. He says, “The priesthood was first given to Adam. He obtained the First Presidency and held the keys of it from generation to generation. He obtained it in the Creation before the world was formed, as in Genesis 1:26-28. And he had dominion given him over every living creature. He is Michael, the archangel spoken of in the scriptures. Then to Noah, who is Gabriel, he stands next in authority to Adam in the priesthood. He was called of God to this office and was the Father of All Living in his day, and to him was given the dominion. These men held the keys first on the earth and then in heaven. The priesthood is an everlasting principle and existed with God from eternity to eternity and will to eternity without beginning of days or ends of years.”

Casey Griffiths:
So we go directly from a kind of very down-to-earth temporal concern to the lofty, Hey, the reason why you’re doing this is to bring back the purity, the priesthood, the authority that existed in the days of Adam when he lived in Adam-ondi-Ahman. Kind of a nice intermixing of the mundane day to day functions of the Church with these higher purposes of the Restoration of the Church in the last days.

Scott Woodward:
Never take your eye off the end goal here, right? All of this temporal stuff is meant to build up on the Earth Zion, in preparation for the Zion above, which will come and fuse where heaven and Earth unite. And this launches is the millennial kingdom and all the other beautiful things we’ve talked about this year in the Doctrine and Covenant. It’s like, keep your eye on the prize, right? Eyes on the prize. All of this goes together. Now, the final verses of this revelation, verses 17 through 22, are some of my favorite, honestly. You can you can pluck these out of context, and they’re still really good, in context, they’re also amazing. These are the kind of things you can post on Instagram and stick on your wall or whatever. Listen to how good these verses are. Let’s just read some of these. He says to this group, so young, right? The Church is so new.

Scott Woodward:
He says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye are little children, and ye have not as yet understood how great blessings the Father hath in his own hands and prepared for you. And ye cannot bear all things now. Nevertheless, be of good cheer, for I will lead you along. The kingdom is yours, and the blessings thereof are yours, and the riches of eternity are yours.” So hopeful. Then verse 19, “And he who receiveth all things with thankfulness shall be made glorious, and the things of this earth shall be added unto him, even an hundredfold, yea, more. Wherefore, do the things which I have commanded you, saith your Redeemer, even the Son Ahman, who prepareth all things before he taketh you. For ye are the church of the Firstborn, and he will take you up in a cloud and appoint every man his portion. And he that is a faithful and wise steward shall inherit all things. Amen.”

Scott Woodward:
It’s just a beautiful picture, right? You guys are little children. You don’t yet understand everything I’m trying to do with you here. But just please keep my commandments, and I promise you, the riches of eternity are yours. If you just be grateful for what you do receive from me now, like you are going to be magnified a hundredfold in the future. Trust me, let me lead you along to a very glorious future that you cannot now imagine.

Casey Griffiths:
Well said. Let me point out another quirky thing about this section. Love this section. You see in verse 20, “saith your Redeemer, even the Son Ahman.” This doesn’t show up in the Doctrine and Covenants. But if you’re in the Joseph Smith Papers and you’re going through the documents right after Section 77, which we already talked about as this crazy exploration of the Book of Revelation, and in between Section 78, which is now back to business, we got to make sure that the members of the Church of Missouri are doing their job, there is this document that appears there that is just simply labeled, “A Sample of Pure Language given by Joseph the Seer.” So you can go and find this on the Joseph Smith Papers site. And that’s where the term “Son Ahman,” as it appears in Section 20, first actually shows up. So it’s a sample of the pure language, and it goes through basically and answers a bunch of questions. For instance, like, What is the name of God in the pure language, which is written down as Ahman. And what is the name of Jesus Christ? Son Ahman, and so on and so forth.

Casey Griffiths:
Now, apparently, the handwriting is in John Whitmer’s, it’s John Whitmer’s script, which is, he’s the Church historian. And we think that the spelling of the name is phonetic because in other revelations, the name is spelled Son Ahman, for instance, shows up in Section 95, A-H-M-A-N. In the Joseph Smith Translation of the Book of Genesis, it’s taught that “in the language of Adam, man of holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the Son of Man, even Jesus Christ.” So if the pure language referred to in this document is the same as the language of Adam, then God’s name in the Adamic language is Ahman, which just means man of holiness, which I think is kind of neat. Jesus sometimes refer to himself as the Son of Man. What man? The Man of Holiness. And that the title used for God in the pure language that Joseph Smith is recording here is Man of Holiness. Again, emphasizing our connection to God. God is man, but he’s the Man of Holiness. He’s the man who has achieved exaltation and everything like that. Just kind of a little quirk in the section as we go here.

Scott Woodward:
That is interesting. I know Jesus would often call himself the Son of Man, actually to obfuscate, I mean, that’s one of the themes of Section 78 is obfuscation in order to avoid persecution. I know he liked the term Son of Man because it’s a term that Daniel used to refer to an ambiguous someone who is a divine agent of God who would one day come in the clouds of glory and inherit a kingdom. But it’s also the term used in Ezekiel to refer to just humans, son of humans. And so it seems like Jesus was also using that term to obfuscate his identity until it was time. Sometimes he would do miracles and he would say, Don’t tell anyone yet. It’s not time to really disclose who I am. So, yeah, Son of Man could be seen as this glorious title that is suggestive that he is the Son of the Man of Holiness. I know Elder McConkie kind of I’ve heard that reading, but I think most biblical scholarship would say that he’s also doing Son of Man because it’s this Old Testament passage from Ezekiel and Daniel that helps him to obfuscate his true identity until it was time.

Scott Woodward:
But I think both readings are interesting. All right, now to our third C here, Casey, controversies. What’s the difference between law of consecration, the United Firm, that’s now introduced with Section 78, and the United Order also introduced here?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, that could be really challenging because it seems like in Joseph Smith’s day, the law of consecration referred to the principles found in the Doctrine and Covenants, chiefly in Section 42 as to how we live together and make sure that everybody is fed and housed and has enough to eat, basically. The United Order later on becomes the common term used for this. In fact, Brigham Young and the Church leaders of his era were very fond of referring to the law of consecration as the United Order. And this bleeds over into the 20th century, where as late as, say, the ’60s or the ’70s, you’ll still hear leaders of the Church talking about the United Order. Then there’s the United Firm, which is introduced here, which is that consecrated effort by a small group of members of the Church to try and get the revelations published, to create the Doctrine and Covenants as we know it. So on one level, don’t overthink it. President Eyring actually gave this talk where he said, “At times, the Lord has referred to his way of taking care of the poor as the law of consecration. At times, he’s called it the United Order.” Then he clarified and said, “Today, it’s called the Church Welfare System.”

Casey Griffiths:
But that is maybe the simplest way to just solve the problem is to say they’re all kind of the same thing, basically. But the United Firm is a little bit different, and these sections of the Doctrine and Covenants will be a little difficult to understand if you think it’s just talking in general about the system the Church that’s been given to help the poor. The United Firm refers specifically to that group of Church leaders who are asked to sacrifice, to give up so that the scriptures can be published, so that the revelations can go out to people. And that’s kind of where we’re coming from. And it can be even doubly confusing because we mentioned codenames in this section, but the United Order is one of the codenames for the United Firm. Be cautious with that, but don’t miss the forest for the trees, which is, law of consecration, United Order and the Church Welfare System are all basically just us saying, this is the way the Lord has instructed us to provide for the poor, which is a major purpose of the Church to assist the poor and needy.

Casey Griffiths:
I’ve got one for you. Why codenames? Doesn’t this cause a lot of problems and confused people a little bit? And why did we hang on to the codenames for so long?

Scott Woodward:
I mean, the original purpose for codenames was to protect the identity of those who were mentioned in the revelations so that they could avoid litigation or, like, angry Church members who leave the Church or whatever, and they want to come after somebody financially. Those revelations would have been basically disclosing who to come after. And so that was protective on the one hand, but it does have an unintended consequence that I think is part of the controversy. And that is that the obfuscation or the obscuring of these names, especially the name of the United Firm, well, United Order was a codename for the United Firm. That actually has consequences in the understanding of people who come after this revelation. For instance, it causes confusion when Brigham Young reuses that term in Utah. He calls it the United Order. They try to establish basically communal economic systems where they live some of the principles of Section 42, and they try to create little communities, and they also do business ventures. Zion Cooperative Mercantile Institution, I think is ZCMI. This is all based on this idea. But people started to confuse the term United Order with what Section 42 was saying because of Brigham Young.

Scott Woodward:
I don’t know if Brigham Young misunderstood it. He was not part of the United Firm originally, but this becomes a point of confusion. Some people will say the law of consecration is basically living the United Order. That was basically the understanding of Church leaders for decades. But with some careful sleuthing, with some great historians, in fact, we would highly recommend an article that you can find on Doctrine and Covenants Central under Section 78’s resources, written by a great scholar named Max H. Parkin. It’s called Joseph Smith and the United Firm: The Growth and Decline of the Church’s First Master Plan of Business and Finance, Ohio and Missouri, 1832 to 1834. This is masterful. It’s 63 pages. It’s kind of long, but it is a masterful dissection of what was actually going on historically. And he does marvelous job clarifying the confusion in equating the United Order with the law of consecration itself. He says, That’s not right. It was a joint venture. The United Order was the joint venture between Newel K. Whitney’s store, Sidney Gilbert’s store, and the Literary Firm. And that’s it. And that was dissolved by Section 104, and it was no longer. But because it was based on principles of consecration, Church members started to associate this with the law of consecration itself as articulated in Section 42.

Scott Woodward:
And so, anyway, it caused confusion. The codenames, while we see the value of them in protecting individuals, it also created enough confusion to cause decades of misunderstanding, even up into the highest levels of the Church, talking about the United Order as if it was the law of consecration itself. Now we’ve, I think, clarified that. I think this great article from Max Parkin is, like I said, a masterpiece in doing that. I don’t know what else say about that?

Casey Griffiths:
I would just add, yes. We have spent a lot of time on this podcast trying to clarify what the law of consecration actually is. And that’s a big deal because it’s one of the covenants that you make when you go to the temple and you find the law of consecration in the Doctrine and Covenants. But you have to do the work to understand what about the law of consecration is eternal and still applies today, and what about the law of consecration was situational for them. But one big takeaway, too, is just this idea that the law of consecration was quite flexible from the beginning. The Lord has always kind of taken the Legos and put them back together in different iterations to create and do new things. The United Firm is one example of that, but it’s not the end-all, it always has to be this way example of how consecration works. From the beginning, there was a lot of flexibility built into it.

Scott Woodward:
Okay, Casey, our fourth C for Section 78. What are the consequences of this section?

Casey Griffiths:
The biggest consequence is the United Firm is set up. Can’t downplay how important that is. We refer to that Max Parkin article, which we have for free on Doctrine and Covenants Central. But the purpose of the United Firm, if we were to sort of summarize here, is to manage and coordinate the Church’s temporal, that means just kind of the business and finances of the Church during the early 1830s. In particular, they’re trying to figure out a way to make sure everybody is treated fairly and equally in Kirtland, Ohio, and Independence, Missouri. And under Joseph Smith’s leadership, the firm aims to do, well, five basic things, okay? One, they want to unify Church business efforts. So they want things like Newel K. Whitney’s store and Sidney Gilbert’s store, the Church’s publishing arm, its printing press, and other economic ventures into a single entity that can be overseen by select group of Church leaders. So these Church leaders are going to take the lead in making sure everybody’s working together because they have this larger goal to build Zion. Two, the United Firm is intended to support the Church’s spiritual mission. The Firm provided material resources to do spiritual things like get scriptures into people’s hands or build temples or support missionaries or to care for the poor or to fund other efforts to build Zion.

Casey Griffiths:
And again, just in listing that, I’m mentally thinking, is this temporal or spiritual? And realizing, Oh, the Lord said there’s no difference between the two in Section 29. So if you’re feeding a family, is that a spiritual thing or a temporal thing? Yes, both. They’re both good, and the Church is meant to accomplish good.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. And on that point, it just made me think of my son. He’s a missionary right now in Tacoma, Washington, and we send money every month so that he can do missionary work, so he can have a place to live, so he can have food to eat. He drives a car, and we’re sending money, temporal, so he can do missionary work, spiritual. They just go hand in hand. You can’t really pull them apart from each other, ultimately. The third purpose here, the United Firm, was to implement principles of consecration and stewardship here. It was to set in place consecrated properties and certain members of the Church to manage those as stewards, which aim toward living cooperatively in a joint business venture here while retaining private property rights. It was a very interesting tight rope to try to walk. And like I said, in two years, this is going to fall apart, some because of external circumstances, but some because they had a hard time doing what this section is asking them to do. But nevertheless, that’s what this firm was intending.

Scott Woodward:
Fourth, it was meant to foster financial independence for the Church. Again, verse 14 cannot be overstated. The goal of all of this was to help make the Church independent above all creatures under heaven. So we needed to get the Church in a position that was independent of outside economic systems. As we mentioned, this is a powerful example for all of us members of the Church today. Puts you in a position to do a lot more good than to be constantly in debt, to constantly be distracted by financial concerns and temporal concerns. And so we want to do our best to live within our means so that we can then do with our time and money kingdom-building activities. And on that note, that’s kind of the fifth thing, is that this serves as a prototype. This is the Church’s first large scale attempt to integrate spiritual and temporal governance through a formal business structure. And it’s not going to be the last, Casey. We’ve talked in previous episodes that the Church will continue to engage in business ventures all the way up till today. And as noted, nobody can dispute that it has worked very, very well for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And so those seeds are all right here in Section 78, which with lots of twists and turns, we’ll talk about the Kirtland Safety Society, the bank that failed and other things.

Scott Woodward:
There’s going to be some downer times, but eventually, these principles are going to come to fruition to what we enjoy today in the Church, which is some pretty awesome financial independence.

Casey Griffiths:
Like you mentioned, it’s a bumpy, bumpy road getting to where we are right now. But the United Firm is sort of the prototype. It’s our first test drive to use this unique fusion of two things that are usually separated in the minds of people of faith. That is the spiritual and the temporal. The Lord sees no difference between the two. He openly says so in the Doctrine and Covenants. And it’s blending this economic stewardship with religious commitments. And even though the United Firm doesn’t last very long, like the persecutions in Missouri really kind of finish it off. There’s debt, there’s leadership tensions, there’s persecution. It does kind of lay down the basic pattern that’s going to be used with such great success later on in the history of the Church. So these are our first steps down the road to the system that we’re so familiar with, where we’re a very nimble organization that can accomplish a lot because we don’t see a big difference between doing something spiritual and doing something temporal. In fact, as the Doctrine and Covenants mentions, feeding a family is a spiritual act, and preaching the gospel is a way to lead to temporal salvation for people, too.

Scott Woodward:
100%. All right, so that is the end of Section 78. Let’s transition now to Sections 79 and 80. Casey, what’s the backstory to these sections?

Casey Griffiths:
These two sections are sort of connected to each other in some ways in that they’re received on behalf of two missionaries, Jared Carter and Stephen Burnett. They’re received within five days of each other in Hiram, Ohio. And both revelations contain the Lord’s will to these men regarding their preaching of the gospel. So short sections, but as a sort of snapshot what’s going on in the early Church, they’re really valuable. So Section 79 is given to Jared Carter. Jared Carter is 30 years old when this revelation is received. We’ve mentioned him before. He grows up in Benson, Vermont. He moves to Chenango, New York and gets married to Lydia Ames. And while he’s living in Chenango, in January 1831, a missionary named John Peck shares the Book of Mormon with Jared. And while reading it, he became, these are his words, “immediately convinced that it was a revelation of God.” So he’s baptized by Hyrum Smith in Colesville, New York, the next month. And then he moves with the Colesville branch when the Church members gather to Ohio a few months later. He attends the fourth General Conference of the Church, that big one in June 18t31, where he first hears the Prophet Joseph Smith speak, about which he later writes, “Notwithstanding he is not naturally talented for a speaker,” speaking of Joseph Smith, “yet he was filled with the power of the Holy Ghost so that he spoke as I’d never heard a man speak for God.” And during that fall and the early winter of 1831 to 1832, leading us right up to when this Section is received, Jared goes on several missions where he preaches the gospel in Ohio, he preaches in Pennsylvania, New York, and Vermont. And when he gets home to Amherst, Ohio, after this mission, he writes, “I at length went to Hiram, Ohio, to the Seer,” to Joseph Smith, “to inquire the will of the Lord concerning my ministry and the ensuing season, and,” he wrote, “the word of the Lord came forth.” So that’s the backstory to Section 79. Now, let’s look at what the Lord says to Jared Carter.

Scott Woodward:
All right, to our second C, content. So the Lord opens here by declaring that it is his “will that my servant Jared Carter should go again into the eastern countries, from place to place and from city to city, proclaiming glad tidings of great joy, even the everlasting gospel.” And, the Lord promises, “I will send upon him the Comforter, which shall teach him the truth and the way whether he shall go, and inasmuch as he is faithful, I will crown him again with sheaves.” And then the Lord addresses Jared directly by saying, “Wherefore, let your heart be glad, my servant Jared Carter, and fear not, saith your Lord, even Jesus Christ. Amen.” Just a short section, Casey, but personal, beautiful. Now, instead of doing the third C right here, controversies with Section 79, maybe we’ll do Section 79 and 80’s controversies together. So let’s move then to our fourth C on this one. Let’s go to the consequences of Section 79.

Casey Griffiths:
About a month after Section 79 is received on his behalf, Jared Carter obeys the revelation, and he begins another mission for the Lord that will last about six months, traveling eastward along Lake Erie towards Benson, Vermont, preaching from place to place and from city to city, as the Lord instructed. In his personal history of this mission, Jared testifies that the Lord did, in his words, “send upon him the Comforter to teach him the truth and where he should go.” And upon returning home from this mission, Jared recorded the fruits of his labors, writing, “I have been gone six months and two days. The Lord has permitted me to administer the gospel to 79 souls, and many others, by my instrumentality, have been convinced of this most glorious work.” And Jared viewed his impressive success as growing directly out of the Lord’s promises to him in this revelation. He wrote, “God has blessed me according to the prophecy of Brother Joseph before I went from Ohio.” Sounds like positive consequences from this.

Scott Woodward:
If you look in this really sunshiny moment, if you look over to the left, there’s actually some dark clouds over in the east, if you will, that are starting to roll in on the story of Jared Carter. So pause for just a moment on the Jared Carter scenario, and let’s move over to Section 80. Then we’re going to swing back and we’re going to grab both of their stories and try to draw some conclusions together because neither of these, spoiler alert, neither of these stories ends well, actually, Casey. But before we go there, tell us a little bit about Section 80. Who’s this to? How did it come about?

Casey Griffiths:
Here’s the context for Section 80. Another short revelation received on behalf of Stephen Burnett. Stephen Burnett is about 18 when this section is given. He joins the Church when he’s about 16 years old. He’s then ordained an elder and a high priest when he’s only 17 years old, which makes him one of the youngest high priests ever ordained in our Church’s history. I don’t know anybody who was ordained a high priest younger. I don’t know if you do, but 17 to be a high priest, pretty good. Stephen gets married to Lamira Gardner at age 18 on January 5th, 1832, and then 20 days later, he’s called in Section 75 to serve a mission with Ruggle Eames, though it appears that this mission never happened, probably something to do with his companion. So about six weeks later, he visits Joseph Smith, who receives Section 80 on behalf of Stephen. This is kind of a mission reassignment. So that’s what we know about Stephen Burnett. Let’s take a look at what the Lord had to say to him.

Scott Woodward:
All right. The content of Section 80 begins this way. The Lord says, “My servant Stephen Burnett, go ye, go ye into the world and preach the gospel to every creature that cometh under the sound of your voice. And inasmuch as you desire a companion, I will give unto you my servant, Eden Smith. Wherefore,” he continues, “go ye and preach my gospel, whether to the north or to the south, to the east or to the west, it mattereth not, for ye cannot go amiss. Therefore, declare the things which ye have heard and verily believe and know to be true. Behold,” the Lord concludes, “this is the will of him who hath called you, your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ. Amen.” A couple of things here maybe to highlight is that there’s… I don’t know if it’s a gradation of things to teach and testify about, but he says, “Declare the things you’ve heard,” maybe that’s one category. “Declare the things that you believe,” maybe that’s another category. And “declare the things that you know to be true,” maybe that’s another category. You don’t have to equally know everything in order to testify about something. It’s okay to share things that you’ve heard and you believe, even if you’re not sure that you know that they’re true.

Scott Woodward:
Maybe it’s concentric circles. Maybe the smallest circle in the middle is what you know for sure to be true. Then you go out one, it’s what you believe to be true. Then you go out even further, and it’s what you’ve heard. Now, make sure what you’ve heard is at least anchored in the standard works and the teachings of the prophets, missionaries out there, looking at you. Make sure you’re sharing those things that are anchored in the scriptures and the teachings of the prophets. Even if you’re not sure if they’re true, that’s okay. What’s anchored in Preach My Gospel, it’s a great guide. We have a lot of other safeguards today that are useful and that Stephen Burnett did not have. But I don’t know. I find that interesting. Heard, believe, know to be true. When the Lord says it matters not whether you go north or south or east or west. I’ve heard Elder Bednar, he’s talked about this in General Conference. I’ve heard him outside of General Conference also refer to this. In fact, most recently, he was at BYU Idaho. He quoted this, and he said, The Lord’s counsel here is super applicable to anyone who’s ever asked to serve a mission or declare the gospel of Christ.

Scott Woodward:
Some people think that your mission call to your specific mission is where where you were foreordained to go in premortality. He said, That’s an assumption that’s not actually substantiated. Stephen Burnett had a mission companion that he couldn’t go with. Ruggles Eames. And so he’s like, I need a new companion. The Lord said, Yeah, let’s do a reassignment. How about Eden Smith? And why don’t you go, I don’t know, wherever, north, south, east, west, doesn’t matter. What matters is that you’re sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with people. So I know, Casey, this is kind of a sensitive topic for some who’ve got a mission call to a place, but then their visa never came or so they had to go to a different mission. They always wonder in the back of their mind, like, Did I go to the wrong mission? Should something have happened? I don’t know. Maybe I should doubt whether or not my mission call was really inspired of the Lord, et cetera. Here’s just a great example in the time of Joseph Smith with this kid named Stephen Burnett. The Lord reassigns a companion, tells them it doesn’t really matter where you go.

Scott Woodward:
What I really care about is if you’re preaching the gospel. I’ve heard Elder Bednar use this in that way to help comfort those who’ve been in that situation.

Casey Griffiths:
This was a huge comfort me. I got my mission call, and all my roommates, I was a freshman at BYU, and one of my roommates got called to Peru, and one got called to Argentina, and all these amazing countries. And my patriarchal blessing had said I should study languages, countries, cultures, and people. So I was like, oh, yeah, I’m going outside the US. And you can actually see this. My family was videotaping me when I opened my mission call, and I open it up and it said, Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And you can just see my face kind of fall because I’d been to Florida a couple of times, right? I’d never been to Fort Lauderdale, but I’d been to Disney World, and it just wasn’t quite as exotic as I thought it was going to be. And a couple of weeks later, my dad, who I think was serving in the bishopric at the time, asked me to talk to the Primary about my mission call, and I just kind of dejectedly pulled up the topical guide and looked at scriptures, and it sent me to Section 80. And that statement, it was like real-time revelation for me, where I got up in front of the primary in the Delta Fifth Ward and started reading, and the words hit me, where the Lord said, It doesn’t matter where you’re going, to the north, to the south, to the east, to the west.

Casey Griffiths:
What matters is how you do it. Just, like, pierced me to where I realized I’ve had the wrong attitude about this the whole time. This is where the Lord wants me to go. So I’m going to go there and I’m going to do the I can. And by the way, in Fort Lauderdale, I realized that my patriarchal blessing, which hadn’t said to study a language or a country or a culture, but languages, countries, cultures, and peoples, man, if there’s a melting pot in the entire United States, it’s that little southern part of Florida, where people from all different countries. I wound up teaching people from every country in South America, from most of the islands of the Caribbean, even places as far away as France and England, I taught. And I learned a little bit about their language and cultures and customs. So this scripture really is meaningful for me in a lot of ways. And I’m grateful for the words of the Lord to Stephen Burnett here because they really helped me at a time in my life when I needed assistance.

Scott Woodward:
Well, awesome. Okay. So again, we’re going to skip the controversy portion. Right now, we’re going to come back in just a moment with that. But, Casey, tell us about the aftermath of Section 80, what happens with Stephen Burnett.

Casey Griffiths:
Two weeks after this revelation was received, Stephen begins his mission with Eden Smith’s father. So he actually doesn’t go with Eden Smith rather than with Eden himself as the revelation directs, because Eden gets sick at the time and is sick for quite a while afterwards. So beginning that August, Stephen and Eden do fulfill the prophecy. They join together, they preach. And according to Eden’s journal, the two of them serve together in Eastern Ohio. They held a lot of different meetings, but they were not successful in bringing any converts into the Church. The revelation is carried out. Eden Smith does become his partner, but it doesn’t seem like they have a super successful mission. So the short term consequences are that both of them fulfill and carry out their mission. And there’s nothing really controversial about that. If there’s controversy, it might come in the long-term consequences of what happens to Stephen Burnett and Jared Carter. Do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, it’s, the unfortunate long-term consequence here is they both leave the Church eventually. In Jared Carter’s case, after a few more short missions, he sort of gradually becomes less faithful. He doesn’t pinpoint any particular thing. In his own history, he said, quote, “The Spirit of God in a measure has left me.” And although he continues to fulfill Church assignments for a couple more years, and even moves with the Saints from Ohio to Far West, to Missouri, and then to Nauvoo. But when the Nauvoo Saints finally go west to Utah. That’s when Jared says, All right, that’s enough for me. He leaves the Church there, and he goes and settles in Chicago, and then in DeKalb County, Illinois, where he eventually dies at age 54. So he’s kind of just this like slow petering, says, “The Spirit of God left me.” He just didn’t really feel the fire anymore, Casey. Really kind of interesting. We’ll come back to him in just a second. As for Stephen Burnett, in 1837 in Kirtland, he’s going to become disaffected in the midst of what we call the Kirtland apostasy. We’ll talk a lot more about this when we get to Section 112.

Scott Woodward:
But he’s going to join with apostate, Warren Parrish, in denouncing Joseph Smith. In contrast to Jared Carter, who just kind of petered out, Stephen Burnett goes out swinging, swinging against Joseph Smith, declaring him a fallen prophet, vilifying anyone who continued to stand by Joseph Smith, calling him heretics. In the Elders’ Journal that was published in 1838 and edited by Joseph Smith, it actually describes Stephen Burnett as having become at this time, quote, “A little ignorant blockhead, whose heart was so set on money that he would at any time sell his soul for $50.” It then said, quote, “Stephen got wearied of the restraints of religion, and then in his apostasy,” quote, “rejoiced in the great victory he had obtained over the great God and all the holy angels, how he had discovered them liars and impostures.” So he goes out with a bang like that, declaring all of it false, an imposture. And he’s an angry man on his way out of the Church. These sections, I think, have some interesting kind of takeaways. Maybe the positive consequences long term could be lessons we can learn from them both, Casey. Any lessons that stand out to you as you think about Jared Carter and Stephen Burnett and how their story begins and how it ends?

Casey Griffiths:
This is a happy time in their life when these revelations are received, right? They’re only received these two revelations a few days apart. And both Jared Carter and Stephen Burnett have a firm faith in God and in his prophet and a willing eagerness to preach the gospel, to preach what the section calls the glad tidings of great joy, which they really believed. And as the section says, know to be true. But given the years that followed, the same gospel loses its luster and loses its joy for both of them and their commitment to God and to the Church and to the prophet dwindle and gradually evaporate or die. It’s a maybe all-too-familiar narrative where you meet somebody that has the real fire in their life. And then, for whatever reason, through a combination of bad choices or circumstances changing or disappointments that they can’t reconcile with the gospel, they kind of lose that fire that they had as younger people.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. So maybe Section 79 and 80 can just serve as a sobering and cautionary tale. For any of us who’ve ever felt the warm glow of faith, the fire of resolve to share the good news of Christ’s gospel, maybe it just underscores the vital importance of consistently nurturing your faith, keeping our covenant promises, enduring faithfully to the end. I kind of feel for these guys, Jared saying, “The Spirit of God in a measure has left me.” How many returned missionaries, Casey, have you talked to who said, I just don’t feel the Spirit the same as I used to on my mission.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
Like, what can I do? What can I do to feel the Spirit like I used to on my mission? On the one hand, it’s a very relatable feeling that Jared has. The Spirit seems to have left me in a measure. What would you counsel anyone in Jared’s position before he fully leaves the Church?

Casey Griffiths:
I know that this isn’t super profound, but I used to have an old bishop who would just simply ask, When’s the last time you read your scriptures? A lot of times it was, I can’t think of the last time I read my scriptures. Or he would say, Tell me about your prayers. And they’d be like, I don’t know. I know that pray and read the scriptures and go to church are the most pat answers we give to any problem. But it has less to do with sort of a silver bullet that solves all their concerns about the history and doctrines of the Church, and more with, have they been consistently feeding their soul? Have they been doing the things necessary to stay spiritually healthy? It’s like when I go to the doctor and he says, Have you been eating right? And I say, No. And when’s the last time you exercised? I don’t know. Well, I’m going to be unhealthy, right? And it seems like a lot of times, and I’m not downplaying what happened to Jared Carter or Stephen Burnett. Stephen Burnett, in particular, we’ve talked about on our podcast. He had some real faith crisis stuff happen to him during the Kirtland apostasy.

Casey Griffiths:
But it also feels like we’re better able to manage those faith crises if and when they come, if we’re spiritually fit. And that means we have to do the in-and-out, take your lunch box to work and go home, kind of stuff every day that allows us to be spiritually healthy.

Scott Woodward:
I love that. I just add, remember what you were doing on your mission where you were being really selfless and trying to serve people, and you thought a lot less about yourself than you did about other people? Again, that’s not a profound answer, but there is something beautiful and simple and Christlike in that. Even if for a time you don’t feel the Spirit of God while you’re doing those things, you know they’re the right and the best and the most beautiful things to do with your life, to make your life meaningful by benefiting other people, by helping other people thrive. That’s what you were doing on your mission. I’m thinking of Mother Teresa. She talks about having gone through, she calls it the dark night of the soul where she felt like she didn’t feel the Spirit for a really long time, but she just persisted in doing what she knew was good and true and beautiful and Christlike and trusted that once she knew that she had her moral compass right, she knew that the Spirit of God had testified, that helping and loving other people was the right thing to do. So even when the clouds came in and it didn’t seem so clear that the Spirit of God was still pulsating in her soul, she knew that true north and she continued to follow it.

Scott Woodward:
Maybe there’s something beautiful about that, too, Casey. It’s just that gentle simplicity of knowing what’s right, being committed to doing it, and not hyperventilating over whether or not I feel the Spirit of God today. It’s just, you know what’s good, you know what’s true, you know what’s beautiful. Your mission taught you at least that. So stay true to those things, even maybe when you don’t feel the Spirit of God like you did sometimes on your mission. And if you’re really true and honest with yourself, you didn’t feel the Spirit of God in great abundance every single day on your mission. No missionary does that. There are ups and there are downs, but we’re not trying to solve all the problems right here. But those are a couple of thoughts.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, well said.

Scott Woodward:
Well, that wraps us up for this week’s Come, Follow Me, Casey.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. A lot to talk about, everything from the Book of Revelation to temporal concerns to just these two little missionaries seeking direction on where to go. Captures the grandiosity of the gospel, but also the simplicity of our service within God’s kingdom.

Scott Woodward:
Thank you, sir. We will see you again next week.

Casey Griffiths:
Okay. See you then.