Scott Woodward:
Who will ultimately be saved? The answer is kind of surprising.

Casey Griffiths:
There’s a major, major thing. We got to stop and process this.

Scott Woodward:
Joseph puts the entire revelation into a poem.

Casey Griffiths:
This is some major bombshells, right?

Scott Woodward:
We’re not talking about degrees of damnation here. We’re talking about degrees of salvation.

Casey Griffiths:
Well, how good can I be and how high will Christ take me if I allow him to do what he does, to lift me up into the celestial realms?

Scott Woodward:
Ultimately, this is going to be really, really good.

Casey Griffiths:
This is what the test actually is in this life. Hello, Scott.

Scott Woodward:
Hey, Casey.

Casey Griffiths:
You’re excited for today, right? This is a big one.

Scott Woodward:
We’re going to talk about “the vision.” This was what it was known by. Section 76 was known by “the vision” when it first came out because it was transcendent, man.

Casey Griffiths:
For a good reason. There’s some meaty stuff in here. This is the foundation of that plan of salvation diagram the Latter-day Saints like to draw so much that’s been on every whiteboard, chalkboard, and blank surface in the Church. I’ve seen T-shirts, I’ve seen bumper stickers, the circles and lines, man. It’s just one of the coolest things that we believe. And I remember as a missionary thinking, I was really excited to get to this, too, to do discussion four back in the day when it was six discussions. Give us a little intro here.

Scott Woodward:
Well, one of the cool things about this section is that this is one of the very few revelations that was independently published in the Church newspaper shortly after it came out, which signified, like, how important it was to the Church. And I think, Casey, this is the only revelation that was officially signed by Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon to certify its legitimacy. And this was done for good reason, I think. Perhaps such official certification was provided as a uniquely-needed reassurance to Church members, given that this revelation introduces a flood of heretofore unknown doctrinal teachings about about Christ, about the resurrected afterlife, about the nature of salvation. And so with such a watershed revelation, Casey, I think Church members needed that reassurance that this was legit. This actually came from the prophet.

Casey Griffiths:
This is a game changer, and it’s a radical shift in thinking.

Scott Woodward:
And Casey, wasn’t this kind of difficult for some Church members, even when they first received it, to be like, Hold on a second, what is this?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, the honest truth is, we take this for granted so much today, and we’re so in love with the idea of this complex model of the afterlife that we don’t realize what a radical shift it was for the early Saints. Now, Joseph Smith pretty much loves it from the beginning. When he writes his history and he puts the vision, he writes this. He says, “The sublimity of the idea, the purity of the language, the rewards for faithfulness, and the punishment for sins are so much beyond the narrow-mindedness of men that every honest man is constrained to exclaim, ‘It came from God.’” And so he loves it from the beginning, but there’s other Church members that are wary of it. For instance, Brigham Young said this. He said, “Some apostatized because God was not going to send to everlasting punishment heathens and infants, but had a place of salvation in due time for all, and would bless the honest and virtuous and truthful, whether they belong to any church or not. It was new doctrine to this generation, and many stumbled at it.” So Brigham Young, you know, said, Hey, a lot of people just really love this binary idea of heaven and hell.

Casey Griffiths:
And the vision really challenged those preconceptions, and a lot of people genuinely did struggle with it. And we do have some evidence that leaders of the Church limited the teaching of the vision. It was considered kind of to be deep doctrine at its time. So there’s an epistle where they tell elders of the Church to not teach them the vision until people were more aware of the more basic principles of the gospel, though they did put the vision in the Doctrine and Covenants in 1835. And it seems like I said, Joseph Smith was on board with the vision from the beginning, but others were just really skeptical about it.

Scott Woodward:
How interesting would that be if the prophet said, Hey, missionaries, please don’t teach the doctrine found in Section 76 today? To us, that’s mind boggling, right? But the early understanding was like, Hey, let’s give them milk before they get the meat that is Section 76. So buckle up, everybody. Today, we’re going into the meat. Okay, so Casey, paint the picture here. How does this come about?

Casey Griffiths:
After the conference of elders that’s held in Amherst, Ohio, this is where Section 75’s received, this is what we talked about last time. Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon go back to the John Johnson home in Hiram, Ohio. And Joseph Smith states, “I resumed the translation of the scriptures,” just as the Lord had instructed them to do in Section 73. So his history of this time says that based on evidence from several of his previous revelations, this is the way he phrases it. He says, “It was apparent that many important points touching the salvation of man had been taken from the Bible or lost before it was compiled.” And one of these really important salvific points on Joseph’s mind at the time was the idea of heaven. How do you conceive of how do you think of heaven? This is what Joseph Smith writes. He says, “It appeared self-evident from what truths were left that if God rewarded everyone according to the deeds done in the body, the term heaven, as intended for the Saint’s eternal home, must include more kingdoms than one.” He’s taking on this idea of there’s just one place of reward, and everybody kind of gets the same reward, but that doesn’t seem to mesh with the scriptures, which do have this more complicated idea.

Scott Woodward:
Now, although like a multi-tiered heaven is kind of an unconventional departure from the more traditionally held heaven-or-hell view of that time, weren’t there some people who had talked about that, though?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. Even in the scriptures, there’s verses that hint that there’s greater complexity. “In my Father’s house are many mansions.” And the Book of Mormon, like in the Book of Enos, talks about “many mansions” and things like that. It wasn’t unheard of in Joseph Smith’s day. Let me give you another specific example. There was an 18th-century Swedish scientist, theologian, mystic. His name was Emmanuel Swedenborg, and he claimed to have frequently conversed with angels. He still has followers today, too. But I know a woman who’s a Swedenborgian minister. I don’t think there’s a lot of them, but they are out there, and she’s great. But he writes this book called Concerning Heaven and its Wonders and Concerning Hell: From Things Heard and Seen, which is published in 1758. So not quite 100 years before this vision happens, but around 70 or 80 years. In this conception, Swedenborg said that heaven was divided into two kingdoms, one of which he calls the celestial kingdom and the other one, the spiritual kingdom. In the second conception, he said there were actually three heavens concentric with one another. The inmost, he called the celestial heaven, the middle, he called the spiritual, and the outermost, he called natural.

Casey Griffiths:
So that’s an idea that’s floating around, is Swedenborg. And again, that one’s not completely unscriptural either. Paul says, “I was caught up to the third heaven.” And again, some of these ideas are founded in Paul’s writings in 1 Corinthians, where he talks about different glories or types of resurrected bodies.

Scott Woodward:
We’ve got a good friend named J. B. Haws, who has written an excellent article about Emmanuel Swedenborg’s three degrees of heaven. It is excellent. We highly recommend.

Casey Griffiths:
There’s a link to it on Doctrine and Covenants Central, too, if you look up Section 76. So that’s one view, kind of the Swedenborgian view. And J. B. tried to track down, like would Joseph Smith have had contact with Swedenborgians? There’s some evidence he might have. At the same time, I wrote a paper a couple of years ago. It was one of the earliest things I wrote to try and say, Hey, a person’s religious upbringing shapes their view. So if a person’s raised Baptist, they’re going to be different than if they’re Catholic, even if they convert to the Church. And I wanted to say, What religion was Joseph Smith? And the closest I could come was that Joseph Smith was raised in a universalist home. And this was another really unconventional view, but it was getting more popular in the 1830s. For instance, Joseph Smith’s grandfather, Asael Smith, had affiliated with them. And universalism, in a nutshell, was basically that even if a person is punished, it’s temporary and all mankind would eventually be saved. You can actually see this in documents from the time. That was one of the challenges with Section 76, is some people thought we were too universalist, that we basically saying the same thing.

Casey Griffiths:
But let’s set aside Swedenborgian and universalist because they’re the exception. The rule in Joseph Smith’s day, in fact, the vast majority of Christians he would have affiliated with, were Protestant Christians who held the traditional view that the righteous would go to heaven and the wicked would go to hell.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. And that view is commonly held, I think, for good reason, right? Since there are like dozens of biblical passages that support it. I think over a dozen passages speak of the wicked suffering in hell, while a dozen others speak about the righteous inheriting the kingdom of heaven and eternal life. Some of those passages are spoken by Jesus himself. I mean, think about the imagery that John the Revelator, uses in the final judgment scenes in the Book of Revelation, where, for instance, in Revelation 20, it says that all would be “judged according to their works, and whosoever was not found written in the book of life would be cast into the lake of fire.” There you go. Book of life, lake of fire. Boom. And Restoration scripture seems to uphold this view, too. Like, plenty of passages in the Book of Mormon, for instance, speak in the binary of heaven or hell. Even as recently as Section 29, that we talked about a couple of weeks ago, the Lord explained to Joseph Smith that after the final battle at the end of time, quote, “The righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father; wherefore I will say unto them – Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Scott Woodward:
So Bible, Book of Mormon, and the Doctrine and Covenants so far, Casey, seem to support this, either/or, heaven/hell binary.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. It seems like this is what Joseph Smith is grappling with, this heaven or hell, eternal life, or everlasting fire kind of dichotomy. When him and Sidney Rigdon come to John chapter 5 while they’re translating the Bible. So another thing, just to note really quickly about the vision, is this might be the most significant thing to come out of Joseph Smith’s project to translate the Bible, which seems to line up with what a lot of scholars say about the Joseph Smith translation, is that it wasn’t just about putting back the missing parts of the Bible. It was about receiving new truths. It was God’s way of getting these early Church leaders into the scripture so that they would ask really deep questions, and that would allow him to give them revelation. So they describe the particulars leading into the section. They write, “We, Joseph Smith, Jr. and Sidney Rigdon, being in the Spirit on the 16th day of February, in the year of our Lord, 1,832, while we were doing the work of translation which the Lord had appointed unto us, we came to the 29th verse of the fifth chapter of John, which was given unto us as follows, Speaking of the resurrection of the dead concerning those who shall hear the voice of the Son of Man and shall come forth, they which have done good, in the resurrection of the just, and they who have done evil, in the resurrection of the unjust.”

Casey Griffiths:
Now, if you view this side by side with the King James version of this verse, it’s clear that this Spirit-inspired change was actually really minor. Even after the phrases “resurrection of life” and “resurrection of damnation” were changed to “resurrection of the just” and “resurrection of the unjust,” the verse still retained the simplistic division of mankind into just two groups. And this is where Joseph Smith writes, “Now this caused us to marvel.”

Scott Woodward:
I love that Joseph Smith said, “This caused us to marvel because it was given to us of the Spirit,” because the verse still retains that simplistic binary of heaven/hell, eternal life/eternal damnation, just or unjust. I’ll ask my students sometimes when I’m teaching this section, I’ll say, All right, raise your hand if you’ve done good. They raise their hand, Okay, now raise your hand if you’ve ever done evil. Everyone raises their hand. Do you see how this verse didn’t clarify even after the JST, after the Spirit gave this modification of that verse to them? It still retained so many questions, right. It says, Those who’ve done good get the resurrection of the just, and those who’ve done evil, the resurrection of the unjust. That doesn’t answer any questions. Is it really still just a division like that? We’ve all done good and we’ve all done evil. So like, there’s various degrees of good and bad along the spectrum. And so it seems way more complicated than saying there’s just a resurrection of the just and the unjust. But the Spirit gave him that verse. And so Joseph’s like, Man, is that really how it is?

Casey Griffiths:
So, yeah, it’s possible that this verse raised more questions even after they translated it, and that it’s that discussion that follows after that leads to the vision. But what Joseph Smith writes essentially is this. He says, “It was while we meditated upon these things that the Lord touched the eyes of our understanding, and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone roundabout.” So again, scripture study leads to revelation. In this particular case, they’re meditating on a question, they’re pondering, they’re thinking, and that’s when the vision comes, and it changes everything.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, and this is probably the very best example, as you mentioned, of the Joseph Smith translation being a springboard to further revelation. That’s a point that we’ve made a lot in previous podcast series and episodes where we’ve talked about this idea that we don’t even know if Joseph was trying to put back stuff that was lost from the Bible. He never claims that. We don’t know. That’s a common assumption Latter-day Saints have. But what we do know for sure is that when Joseph did the JST, he asked questions and he got amazing revelations as a result. Here we go. John 5:29, a little verse, one little verse in the Bible. It became the springboard to everything we’re about to read. All right, so let’s dive into the content.

Casey Griffiths:
There is a lot of content here. This is one of the longest sections in the entire Doctrine and Covenants. And so it’s probably helpful if we have kind of an overview right now where we just sort of do big picture, here’s what it’s talking about. And the biggest picture itself, if we’re saying, Well, what is the vision? In the earliest manuscript of this revelation we have in the Manuscript Revelation book, there is a little introduction that kind of boils the vision down to talking about two things. So it reads as follows, “A vision of Joseph and Sidney Rigdon, February 16, 1832, given in Portage County, Hiram Township, State of Ohio in North America.” And then here you go, “Which they saw concerning the church of the Firstborn and concerning the economy of God and his vast creation throughout all eternity.” So just to break those down a little bit, the church of the Firstborn is elaborated on in several revelations that follow fairly quickly after. And the best way to describe it is that the church of the Firstborn is not synonymous with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There are a lot of people in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that won’t be part of the church of the Firstborn.

Casey Griffiths:
The way the Savior himself describes it in Section 93 is he says, “Now, verily, I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; and all those who are begotten through me are partakers of the glory of the same, and are the church of the Firstborn.” So the church of the Firstborn are the people that are going to become like Jesus Christ, that will become like the Firstborn. And that is a major thing in the vision, of how they come to do this, how Jesus brings this about. Now, the second point where it says “the economy of God and his vast creation.” This is used totally different today than it was back in Joseph Smith’s day. So I pulled up my handy-dandy 1828 dictionary. And if you look up economy today, that word refers to like stocks and bonds and tradings and tariffs and all those things, right. The first definition given in an 1828 dictionary is “the management, regulation, and government of a family or concerns of a household.” And so it seems like what they were trying to say was this has to do with the church of the Firstborn and then how God manages the rest of his family, suggesting, yeah, we’re going to talk about how you become exalted, how you become like Christ, but what happens to everybody else that might not qualify for exaltation, but God still loves and wants to take care of.

Casey Griffiths:
So boiling the vision down to two points, that’s what they do. They say this is about the church of the Firstborn, and this is about how God works with the rest of family, which is kind of a nice, broad way to look at it. So that’s the broad overview. Let’s do a more intensive overview, and then we’ll dive into the verse.

Scott Woodward:
You just did a 10,000-foot view. Let’s go 100 feet above, and let’s get our bearings. So verses 1 through 10 are kind of the prelude to the vision. If you want to mark it out, 1 through 10 will be the prelude, which outlines the character of God, his merciful promises of revelation to the faithful, et cetera, which is a great way to frame this whole thing. This revelation is an example of a merciful God giving revelation to the faithful. Then, verses 11 through 19 are where Joseph and Sidney actually tell about the immediate backstory just prior to the vision. In fact, we’ve been quoting from them, talking about the context. We’ve quoted from those verses right here. Then verses 20 through 112. Can you catch that? 20 through 112 is the vision itself. This vision is vast, it’s long, and we can subdivide it further as follows. Like, verses 20 through 24, if you’re tracking here, is, we call it vision one. This is the glory of the Son and the Father. Then verses 25 through 29, we call it vision two, which is the fall of Satan. Then verses 30 through 49 would be vision three, which is the sufferings of the ungodly.

Scott Woodward:
Then, verses 50 through 70, would be vision number four, the celestial vision. 71 through 80, vision five, if you’re tracking here, the terrestrial vision. 81 through 88, vision six, the telestial, part one. Then, verses 89 through 98 are a little brief interlude where Joseph and Sidney succinctly sort of recap and synthesize what they’ve been witnessing in the vision so far. Then back into 99 through 113, we return to vision number 6 again, part 2, vision of the telestial. Then finally, verses 113 through 119 are the conclusion or the postlude to this amazing revelation. So the vision is actually subdivided into several micro-visions of different parts. And they’ll stop and they’ll write and they’ll talk, and then they’ll go and they’ll see another vision, and then they’ll stop and they’ll write. So that’s the cadence of this revelation. Casey, I think this is one of the only revelations where the Lord himself is the tour guide. There are other visions. I’m thinking like with Ezekiel, I’m thinking with John, I’m thinking with Nephi, 1 Nephi 11-14, where an angel will guide a person through a panoptic vision of the future. But in this case, Joseph and Sidney will often say, And then the Lord explained, and then the Lord said, and then we heard the voice of the Lord say.

Scott Woodward:
It appears that the Lord himself is giving this tour of the future of the eternities, the economy of God dealing with his family.

Casey Griffiths:
And that seems to match what we know about how the vision was received. One unique thing about the vision is you can still go to the John Johnson home and go to the exact room where this happened. And a man named Philo Dibble was actually present while the vision was being received. This is what he describes. He said, “During the time that Joseph and Sidney were in the Spirit and saw the heavens open, there were other men in the room, perhaps 12, among whom I was one during part of the time, probably two-thirds of the time. I saw the glory and felt the power, but did not see the vision.” And Philo said that Joseph and Sidney were sitting there and one would be describing what he saw, and then the other would say, I see the same, and then the other would switch back and start describing, and then the other would say, I see the same. And this is where he puts in this statement, which might be a little editorial because this is after Sidney Rigdon’s left the Church. But he said, “When the vision closed, Joseph Smith appeared hale and hearty and ready for more while Sidney Rigdon sat in his chair as limp as a rag.”

Casey Griffiths:
Joseph saw Sidney and turned and said, Sidney is not as used to this as I am. Now, that’s all being filtered through Philo Dibble, but that does match the pattern that they’re being guided along, and one vision’s closing and another vision’s opening. It’s easy to break down Section 76, even though it’s quite lengthy, if you think, Oh, this is a vision that’s really six different visions showing six different things.

Scott Woodward:
Good. Okay, so let’s dive into the first little prelude here, verses 1 through 10. This is an invitation for everybody, quote, “Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof.” Notice that this invitation to listen and rejoice is extended to the inhabitants on both sides of the veil, heaven and earth. That tells me, Casey, that this might be a revelation that people on the other side of the veil were interested in, too. Like, oh, my gosh, we had no idea. As people are waiting in the spirit world or even resurrected beings, who knows how deep the insights from this revelation go on both sides of the veil. But he says, hearken for both sides. And they are to do so because “the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior.” And because “great is his wisdom, and marvelous are his ways, his purposes fail not, and none can stay his hand. From eternity to eternity, he is the same, and his years never fail.” He himself has said, “I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious to honor those who fear me,” he said, “and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end. Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory.”

Scott Woodward:
Then specifically, he promises that “to them,” to that group, those who love him, “will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom. Even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, and their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; for by my spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will – yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.” Again, I think the Lord is giving it this prelude because he’s about to show that very promise in action. What he’s about to explain, Casey, eye has not seen, ear has not heard, it has not entered into the heart of man as far as we know, because it’s not explained anywhere else. This is the place. As if to illustrate the truthfulness of this very promise, the Lord then goes on to give them this vision.

Scott Woodward:
Joseph and Sidney begin in verse 11 to tell the story of how it happened on a cold February day, by the power of the Spirit, their eyes were opened, et cetera. This is much of what you’ve already read in the prelude. After describing their experience, translating John 5:29, and meditation is induced in them, they testify that, quote, “The Lord touched the eyes of our understandings and they were opened, and the glory of the Lord shone round about.” And then they see something remarkable.

Casey Griffiths:
So this is vision number one, which is the vision of the Father and the Son. He describes it, “We beheld the glory of the Son, on the right hand of the Father, and received of his fullness; and saw the Holy angels, and them who are sanctified before his throne, worshiping God, and the Lamb, who worship him forever and ever.” And this is where they, probably the most famous and oft-quoted testimony of Joseph Smith. But remember, both Joseph and Sidney are saying this, “After the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all,” meaning most recently, “which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father – that by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” Now there’s a major, major thing. We got to stop and process this right a little bit. Let’s deal with a couple of things. First, a major Christological insight here is that not only did that Jesus create multiple worlds by him and through him, but the inhabitants of those worlds become begotten sons and daughters unto God, implying that men and women on the other worlds have been created by Christ and become the children of Christ and heirs of his kingdom, just as they do in our world.

Casey Griffiths:
In other words, this is some major bombshells, right? But one, there are sons and daughters of God on other worlds besides this one. This is one of the only times the Lord pulls back the curtain and lets us see how big his work actually is. Secondly, they are saved by Jesus Christ, too, that there’s one Savior, one atonement, an infinite atonement, the Book of Mormon would say, that saves them.

Scott Woodward:
It’s super actually insightful. If you read really carefully, I like how you read that, Casey, that he’s not saying, On other earths, there are children of God, in this generic sense. He’s saying that, By Christ and through Christ and of Christ, people on other worlds become the children of Christ. This is a theme we’ve noticed in the Doctrine and Covenants so far, like Section 25 with Emma, that when you receive me, Christ said, you become my sons and daughters in my kingdom. In other words, there’s this undercurrent that the continuity of God’s plan on all earths and all creations is one, right? That people become the children of Christ and heirs in the kingdom of God in the same way on all of his creations. And I mean, the insight into this is amazing. In fact, the very best commentary, Casey, I think you’ll agree with this, on Doctrine and Covenants Section 76, is Joseph Smith’s own commentary that he made in Nauvoo on the revelation by putting the entire thing into a poem. It’s kind of this playful back and forth that he did with W. W. Phelps in the Church’s newspaper. And maybe Phelps helped him to massage the language in this, and maybe not.

Scott Woodward:
There’s a little controversy there. But Joseph puts the entire revelation into a poem. In that poetic version, you get to see Joseph’s understanding of the verses. For instance, this passage here, Joseph said this. He wrote, “And I heard a great voice bearing record from heaven: he’s the Savior and Only Begotten of God. By him, of him, and through him, the worlds were all made, even all that career in the heavens so broad, whose inhabitants too, from the first to the last, are saved by the very same Savior of ours, and of course, are begotten God’s daughters and sons by the very same truths and the very same powers.”

Casey Griffiths:
I think the poetic version of the vision, he leans pretty heavily on W. W. Phelps. They write it together. In fact, there’s an introductory poem called Vete Mechum, or Go with me, that W. W. Phelps writes, and then Joseph writes the poetic version of the vision in response to that. By the way, the entire poem is on Doctrine and Covenants Central. We put it there as an additional resource. If you want to go look it up while you’re studying this and taking a look at it.

Scott Woodward:
Which you should be able to find under Doctrine and Covenants Section 76, section by section resources.

Casey Griffiths:
It’s just kind of neat to think that we do have a theology that embraces the wider universe. So we can go even one step further and say, One of the things we know about the other worlds is that they learn about Jesus Christ and are saved through the same truth. So you’d still be talking about Jesus Christ and his gospel and the basic covenants. Again, I don’t know if he goes by the Jesus Christ on the other worlds, but the truths and the powers, Joseph Smith confirms in the poetic version of the vision, are the same. It’s a theology that’s big enough to embrace the wide universe. And sometimes we need to be put in our place a little bit, right? And say, Hey, what’s happening on Earth is part of what God and Jesus are doing. But there’s a lot bigger picture that only occasionally we get glimpses of.

Scott Woodward:
There’s a nugget. We would say, eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard and never had it entered into the heart of the children of men, that Christ was the Savior of all the worlds that he helped to create. That’s amazing. Okay, let’s go to verse 25. This verse now shifts to a vision of the fall of Satan in stark contrast to the vision of the glory of Christ. We go from the heavenly to the hellish right here, Casey. In this vision, the second vision now, Satan is described as a former, quote, “Angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, but who then rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved, and was therefore thrust down from the presence of God and the Son, and was then called Perdition,” which means loss or utter destruction. “And the heavens wept over him,” because “he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.” Now Lucifer is not actually a bad word. Lucifer means shining one or like son of the morning, like a star so bright in the sky that in the morning when you look out, you can still see that star because it’s so bright.

Scott Woodward:
He was one of the bright ones. He went from Lucifer down to Perdition. That fall is tremendous that he’s describing here. “And we beheld, and lo,” Joseph and Sidney continue, “he is fallen! Is fallen, even a son of the morning!” Exclamation point they put here actually. This was unheard of. This was big news. The heavens are weeping over the fall of the sons of the morning. They go on, “We beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the devil, who rebelled against God and sought to take the kingdom of our God and his Christ – wherefore,” they conclude, “he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.” There’s actually a couple words in here that might be interesting to know. We got Lucifer, the shining one. We got Perdition, which means utter destruction. But Satan, Satan is another word that’s used here, another title. That means spoiler or adversary. Old serpent, that’s like a cunning, crafty one. We get some really interesting phraseology here describing Satan and his various tiers of his fall from Lucifer down to Perdition.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, and this is interesting backstory for Satan, which, like you mentioned, Satan is a title. Lucifer is his name. There’s other insights provided in Moses 4 and Isaiah 14. But one of the major takeaways is he didn’t start out being evil. In fact, it’s always struck me that the contrast here is the first vision that they’re shown is God and Jesus Christ, like the best of the best, like the best possible outcome is what Jesus is and what he became, and then the worst possible outcome. It reminds me, when I was a missionary, we went out to lunch with these evangelical guys once, and they were doing all these gotcha questions, and Scott, I blew it. I totally blew it because they asked the question of, Do you believe God created Satan? And I said, Well, Satan is a son of God. And they flipped this around on me to say, Do you believe God created evil then? And then they just went to town. If I could have that conversation over again in my head, and I’ve replayed it a billion times, I would have said, No, agency created evil. God created sons and daughters and gave them agency and the proper use of agency.

Casey Griffiths:
In fact, making every right choice means Jesus Christ. Making wrong choices with agency means we have the potential to become like Lucifer did, to become Satan, to become an adversary. I just love this insight to say that he didn’t start out being evil. God doesn’t create evil, right? But he does give us agency, and agency requires choices. And unfortunately, there’s good choices and bad choices, enough bad choices, and you can become someone like Lucifer.

Scott Woodward:
Well, that’s, I think, exactly what these verses are trying to show, especially the ones that follow here. In just a moment, we’ll read them. But this idea that there are sons and daughters of Christ, and now we’re going to talk about Sons of Perdition. First of all, we saw Christ, and then we saw those that by him and through him and of him become begotten children of Christ. Then we just switched camera 2, now we see Satan, how he became Perdition. Now it goes to how people become Sons of Perdition. The choice is ours. Here’s the big contrast. Here’s the two poles on polar opposites here of what humanity has the potential to become in either direction. And that is afforded to us by a loving God who honors agency. And by the way, this problem of evil question, we’re not going to solve it right here. But when we get to Section 93, we’re going to go a little deeper into this one because we’re going to learn a fascinating insight there that God, in the ultimate sense, didn’t even create us. And so we’ll let that linger in the air a little bit.

Casey Griffiths:
That’s a lot to tease, but we will get there eventually. The nature of evil or the question of evil, Section 93 deals with. But this is confronting it, too. Basically saying, agency, choice makes us, it makes good or evil. It’s not something that just, poof, appears out of thin air or anything like that.

Scott Woodward:
Let’s take a look then at this super sad vision, starting in verse 30. They call it another vision. It says, they, quote, “Saw another vision of the sufferings of those with whom [Satan] made war and overcame.” A group, again, who the Lord calls the Sons of Perdition. In fact, verses 31 through 39 here are the first time in the vision that the Lord explains anything about this group, and he lays out precisely how these people become Sons of Perdition and the dire consequences for doing so. In fact, Casey, I think this is the only place in the scripture anywhere where the details about Sons of Perdition are explained.

Casey Griffiths:
I think that’s right. This is the most detailed description of how you become a Son of Perdition. Joseph Smith gives some insight in discourses he gives later on, like the King Follett sermon. One question I’ve always had is, it only mention Sons of Perdition. Are there Daughters of Perdition? I think there are, but it only uses that term.

Scott Woodward:
Well, and scripturally, sons of God is often used to mean children of God. So I would grant that same interpretation here. Sons of Perdition would mean children of perdition. It’s when you choose Satan to be your father.

Casey Griffiths:
So here’s what he describes. He says, “All those who know my power and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power – they are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it has been better for them never to have been born.” That seems extreme, right? But he’s talking about the only group of people that the second death really has any effect on, that remain spiritually dead forever and ever. And then he does go on to describe how extreme their crimes have to be, I guess you’d say. He says this, This is so because they become “vessels of wrath, [they’re] doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity; [these are those] whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come – having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves, and put him to an open shame. These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels.”

Scott Woodward:
And then in verse 37, he says, These are “the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power; and the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath. For all the rest,” who are not Sons of Perdition, he says, “shall be brought brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.” Although the Lord’s language here could easily be interpreted to suggest that Sons of Perdition will not be resurrected or brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, he says. Joseph Smith later does clarify this point in Nauvoo, Casey. He says, quote, “Those who sin against the Holy Ghost cannot be forgiven in this world or in the world to come, but they shall die the second death, and they shall rise to that resurrection, which is as the lake of fire and brimstone. They shall rise to the damnation of their own filthiness.” With that clarification in mind, the Lord is, I think, here saying that Sons of Perdition are the only ones who will never be redeemed from the devil’s power in all eternity.

Scott Woodward:
Instead, they’re going to rise in what Joseph is calling a resurrection of damnation into the lake of fire and brimstone with the devil forever. There is no redemptive resurrection here, which is, I think, a category I’m not used to thinking about. The resurrection of the damnation of their own filthiness, Casey, I don’t know what that is. I don’t want to know what that is, but it’s referred to simply as the second death. And this group, to be clear, this group is the only ones who will experience that, section 76 clarifies. The Book of Mormon makes it seem like it’s a category that lots of people could experience. But Section 76 is saying, Well, it’s really actually exclusive to this group. Yeah.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. And let me offer another clarification. I used to look at that, they deny the Holy Ghost and crucify Christ afresh. And one of those things definitely seems worse than the other. They’re basically saying a Son of Perdition is willing to crucify Christ all over again if they had the opportunity, which is pretty extreme, right? They’re not only murderers, they’d be willing to murder the most innocent person who has only but the best intentions for them. But that phrase “denying the Holy Ghost” maybe merits some clarification as well. So this is a quote from the King Follett sermon that Joseph Smith gives before his death. And the context here is really important. Joseph Smith is only a couple of weeks away from his martyrdom. Some of the people that are going to be responsible for that martyrdom are in the crowd. And this is what he says, clarifying. He says, “All sins shall be forgiven, except the sin against the Holy Ghost, for Jesus will save all except the Sons of Perdition.” And I think he’s meaning in the sense you described here, Scott, Jesus won’t save them from the second death, that spiritual death.

Casey Griffiths:
Though they do get resurrected, I’ve never believed that they didn’t get resurrected. “For as in Adam, all die, even so in Christ, shall all be made alive.” The Book of Mormon teaches everybody gets resurrected. But then Joseph Smith goes into this question of what does it mean to deny the Holy Ghost, which a passage in the Book of Mormon calls an unpardonable sin. He says, “What must a man do to commit the unpardonable sin? He must receive the Holy Ghost, have the heavens opened unto him, and know God, and then sin against him. After a man has sinned against the Holy Ghost, there is no repentance for him. He has got to say the sun does not shine when he sees it. He’s got to deny Jesus Christ when the heavens have been opened unto him and to deny the plan of salvation with his eyes open to the truth of it. And from that time, he begins to be an enemy.” And these are so extreme things that you would think, Oh, this is a very small category of people. But then the next line is kind of chilling. He does say, “This is the case with many apostates of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.”

Casey Griffiths:
And I want to clarify that needs to be contextualized, too. Your family member that is posting anti-Mormon memes probably still doesn’t fit into this category. Joseph Smith is speaking to a group of people that have been brought into confidence and have been really, really blessed with great spiritual experiences. And he’s trying to bring some people back into the Church that in only a few short weeks are going to be responsible for his death. So don’t oversell that either. So going back to Section 76, the Lord’s voice commands them to write this vision, and then they write, “This is the end of the vision of the sufferings of the ungodly,” which let me point out one other thing that’s interesting about the vision is a lot of times we downplay the Sons of Perdition or say, hey, don’t worry about it. And that’s probably true because most of us aren’t even qualified to be Sons of Perdition. But if you look at the content of the vision itself, the Sons of Perdition get more real estate than anybody except the celestial glory. So it seems like the Savior was aware and concerned that we know about this, too.

Casey Griffiths:
Or maybe this is for Joseph and Sidney Rigdon, because in receiving this and having the experiences they have, they were probably qualified to become Sons of Perdition. I want to go on record of saying I don’t think either one of them did, but it’s interesting that they get a lot of space in the vision, that the Lord really takes his time to explain this concept and idea and the possibilities linked to it.

Scott Woodward:
That’s fascinating. Another huge idea that the Lord goes on to make here is one that has been fascinating to me for years, Casey. It’s the Lord’s answer to this question, Who will ultimately be saved? And the answer is kind of surprising. “The Lord bore record unto us,” Joseph and Sidney, continuing in verse 40, “that he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness, so that,” listen to this, “through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; and he glorifies the Father, and he saves all the works of his hands.” There it is again, second time. “Except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him. Wherefore,” it goes on, “he,” Jesus, “saves all except them.” Sons of Perdition, he goes on to say, will go away into everlasting punishment to reign with the devil and his angels in eternity, and nobody knows the end of their torment, et cetera. Some get to see it by vision, but then it’s shut up, and no man knows except those who experience that condemnation, he says.

Scott Woodward:
But if we could just stop for a second and think about what major insight that those verses just gave us about salvation. Oh my word, Casey. Everybody who is not a Son of Perdition is considered saved by Jesus Christ. Full stop. End of sentence. Saved. Now, the revelation is going to go on to talk about various tiers of salvation. But I don’t think most people in Joseph Smith’s day or even today are talking degrees of salvation. But even the lowest kingdom, the telestial, is actually a kingdom of salvation. So that’s an important thing to keep in mind. There’s not a bad kingdom of salvation. There’s not a bad fruit of the atonement of Jesus Christ. If you’re saved, that’s glorious. That’s not bad. We’re not talking about degrees of damnation here. We’re talking about degrees of salvation. That’s important, I think, as we continue to read.

Casey Griffiths:
The question at play here, and the major question when we discuss the plan of salvation is the role of agency. Meaning, I sometimes have students raise their hand and say, You know what? What if Satan decided to repent? Is that possible? I think God is using his foreknowledge and foresight to basically say, They’re choosing this. They’re not going to be saved. They won’t change. And he’s doing that for our benefit. The Father is the ultimate power in the universe and the grand sovereign. But the powers of the Father and the Son tend to overlap with each other to such a far degree that I think this is God just using his foreknowledge to basically say, I know they’re not going to repent, but does the Father have power to save them? And if he saved them, would he save them through Jesus Christ? Yes. And in a sense, they are saved. I mean, they do get resurrected, right? “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” There’s no exceptions to that statement or the statements in the Book of Mormon about resurrection. We’re only talking about the second death here, which is that they won’t be saved from their sins, but they do get resurrected.

Casey Griffiths:
What that means is still a huge source of debate. Even Brigham Young and Orson Pratt had big debates over what that means exactly or if they stay resurrected. But I’m just going with the scriptures here and saying it seems like they get resurrected and it’s permanent, and that’s a kind of salvation. The character of God, I understand it, is if there’s any possible way to save you, I will try to save you, and I’ll offer you as much as I can. And it seems like Sons of Perditions are literally throwing it back in his face. That’s how far gone they are. So from there, there’s another abrupt shift. This is where the fourth vision opens, if you’re keeping track. So we’ve seen the Father and the Son. We’ve seen Lucifer. We’ve seen the Sons of Perdition. In verse 50, there’s another abrupt shift. And Joseph and Sidney write that they “saw and heard, concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.” Specifically, a group that verse 58 calls the sons of God, and verse 70 calls celestial. So just like the vision of the fall of Satan was meant to contrast with the vision of the glory of Christ, we’re switching from a vision of the Sons of Perdition to a vision of the sons of God that’s going to directly contrast with what we’ve just seen.

Casey Griffiths:
And here again, he lays out precisely what these people did to become the sons of God. I’m going to add sons and daughters of God and the happy consequences that follow for doing so. So he goes through and says, “These are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized in his name, to be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands.” And finally, “These are those who overcome by faith.”

Scott Woodward:
That’s not a very long list, Casey. If you want to separate out all all the noise of all the things we sometimes feel that we have to do to be good boys and girls and to measure up to God’s standards, sometimes there’s cultural pressure sometimes in a church with high standards. If we sift through all the noise of all the things that we feel expected to do. Look at this. This is such a short list. In fact, this is the shortest list in Section 76 in terms of the qualifications for a kingdom. It’s short. You receive the testimony of Jesus, you get baptized, you’re washed and cleansed from your sins, you receive the Spirit, and you overcome by faith. And that’s it. It’s like, whoa. And then what follows, what follows those verses is this super long litany of the blessings that flow from choosing that path. Let me go through some of these. For instance, they are, quote, “Sealed by the Holy spirit of promise.” No explanation what that means, later on there will be more to that phrase, but that’s all we get. “They are the church of the Firstborn.” There’s that phrase that you mentioned, Casey, about what this vision was all about in Joseph and Sidney’s mind.

Scott Woodward:
“The Father [gives] them all things – they are priests and kings,” or the female equivalent is priestesses and queens, “who have received of God’s fullness and of his glory; they are priests of the order of Melchizedek, Enoch, and God’s Only Begotten Son. Wherefore they are gods, even the sons of God,” meaning the children of God in the sense of kingdom-heirship we’ve been talking about this year. “Wherefore, all things are theirs, and they are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s. And they shall overcome all things. And shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.” Is he done? No, there’s more. He goes on, “These are they whom [Christ] shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people. They will have part in the first resurrection. They will come forth in the resurrection of the just. They will come unto Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all, where they will dwell with an innumerable company of angels, and the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn, and have their names written in heaven. These are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.”

Scott Woodward:
And then finally, verse 70, “These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all.” Holy cow. Casey, if you put the description of what these people need to do and become on one side of the scale, and then put all of those blessings that the Lord just enumerated on the other side. This seems pretty uneven, unequal, Casey. Receive Christ, believe in him, be baptized, receive the Spirit, overcome by faith. And those are the blessings that flow from doing that. Incredible.

Casey Griffiths:
This is kind of an introduction. Joseph Smith once said this. He said, “I could explain a hundred more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in vision were I permitted and were the people prepared to receive them. The Lord deals with this people as a tender parent with a child, communicating light, intelligence, and knowledge of his ways as they can bear it.” So one of the challenges is, even though this section sort of pops up halfway through the Doctrine and Covenants, we forget how early it actually is. It’s 1832. Over the years, more and more about celestial glory and what it means and what the requirements are and what the blessings are, are going to gradually be revealed. So this is the introduction, basically, to this idea of an eternal glory where you live in exaltation, become like God and Jesus Christ. This is the first paragraph, I guess you’d say.

Scott Woodward:
So you’re saying other things like eternal marriage should be added to the list, for instance, be faithful to your spouse, keep your covenants with your spouse, for instance, is an example of what’s coming in Nauvoo, right?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. Joseph Smith, line upon line, precept upon precept, kind of brings these truths out. And more is revealed to him as they go, too, to understand what it means to gain celestial glory. This is just the introduction to it. In fact, sometimes we forget that this vision, in fact, even this vision of the Father and the Son, the first vision in the vision, is being written down before the First Vision is being written down. This is February of 1832. Joseph Smith is going to record the earliest account of his 1820 First Vision the summer after, we think. And so this is really an introduction, and more truths come, and we need to keep that in mind, that we’re getting a glimpse of what celestial glory and the church of the Firstborn are like, but there’s so much information coming soon that we’ve got to put that all together, too, and not forget what was going on when this vision was received.

Scott Woodward:
What, in addition, would you add so that we don’t have to sit in nervous anticipation that there’s going to be so much more required of us, Casey?

Casey Griffiths:
The higher covenants made in the temple, the sacred nature of the family, which so far has only been hinted at in a few places, and the real purpose of the plan of salvation, which is to not just have us sit on a cloud and play a harp for all eternity, but to get into the real work of what the sons and daughters of God are meant to do, which is become like him, to become exalted, and continue to expand God’s glories and dominions and powers. We’re just starting down this road right here. There’s going to be a lot more to come about celestial glory and what it means.

Scott Woodward:
More to look forward to.

Casey Griffiths:
The vision of the celestial glory is roughly verses 50 to 70. Then in verse 71, there’s another visionary shift. Joseph and Sidney say they “saw the terrestrial world,” or the glory of those who are of the terrestrial. And they write, “It differs from that of the church of the Firstborn as the moon differs from the sun in the firmament.” So they’re borrowing from Paul here where he says there’s one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, another glory of the stars in 1 Corinthians 15. And then he goes on to say, “Those in this terrestrial category are described as those “who died without law.” The meaning of this is really unclear. This is another one of those things that’s going to be clarified later on, too. And as those “spirits of men,” this is the way the text reads, “in prison, whom the Son visited,” during his spirit world ministry, “and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh.” He writes, “These are those who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it. And were honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.”

Casey Griffiths:
He goes on to say, “They will receive of Christ’s glory, but not of his fulness.” Then he clarifies, “They will receive the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun.” Then he adds one last phrase, “These are they who are not valiant in the testimony of Jesus; wherefore, they obtain not the crown over the kingdom of God.”

Scott Woodward:
And that’s the end of the vision of the terrestrial.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. Now, this is another one that requires further clarification. There’s revelations that come further down the road that open the door for people that didn’t hear the gospel in this life to obtain higher blessings of the gospel. But let’s save that for controversies and keep going here.

Scott Woodward:
Okay. Then verse 81 in this visionary scene shifts one final time where they wrote, “We saw the glory of the telestial,” which they refer to as “the glory of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.” So a significant drop in glory, he says. Those in this telestial category are characterized as, quote, “Those who received not the gospel of Jesus Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.” Though they deny not the Holy Spirit, they’re not Sons of Perdition. But they will be temporarily, quote, “Thrust down to hell,” where they will, quote, “not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection,” that is, “until the Lord shall have finished his work.” Meaning, it appears, that since these did not receive Christ, they’ve got to suffer for their own sins in the devil’s power during the entirety of the millennial era, after which they’ll finally be redeemed from hell, resurrected by Christ, and receive the telestial glory. Remember that phrase in Section 19 where the Lord says, If you don’t repent, you must suffer even as I. Well, that’s this group. At the end of the millennium, they will be resurrected, and they will enter into the telestial glory.

Scott Woodward:
Then in their resurrected state, Joseph and Sidney continue, “They,” quote, “receive not of [Christ’s] fullness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial.” Interesting. There’s some permeability here. Terrestrial minister to telestial. Then the next verse goes on to say that “the terrestrial receive ministration through the celestial.” These short verses suggest there’s a degree of permeability between the borders of the three regions of glory in the eternal world. It appears that at least some in the celestial region will be appointed to go and minister to those of the terrestrial glory. Then some from the terrestrial glory will be appointed to minister to those of the telestial region. And this, verse 88, says, is because they are, quote, “heirs of salvation.” Speaking of telestial people, so telestial people are heirs of salvation. They will be saved in a kingdom of glory. In fact, Joseph and Sidney actually pause right here in their description of the telestial. Then from verses 89 to 98, they kind of synthesize what they’ve been witnessing, and they say it like this. This is so beautiful to me. They say, “And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which,” they emphasize, “surpasses all understanding; and no man knows it except to whom God has revealed it.”

Scott Woodward:
Let’s just pause on that for a second. The lowest kingdom of salvation surpasses understanding, Casey. This isn’t the equivalent of like hell. I’ve heard it talk like that. That, well, telestial is kind of like hell, terrestrial is kind of like heaven. How normal Christians kind of think about this. And then the celestial is better than anyone ever thought. No, no. The telestial is beyond what you I can conceive of. That’s salvation. That’s the fruits of the mercy of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and his redemption. And then compare that, they go on to say, with the terrestrial, “which excels in all things the glory of the telestial, even in glory, and in power, and in might, and in dominion.” It’s like, Oh, my word. If your brain already couldn’t comprehend how amazing the telestial is, well, the terrestrial is even better than that. It excels in all things. The way that they’re describing this like they can’t grab the right words. There are no words to explain the glory. Then, of course, the glory of the celestial, they say, “excels in all things,” which is “where God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever,” and where those “who dwell in his presence see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fullness and of his grace; and he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.”

Casey Griffiths:
So it’s pretty good. It’s pretty good.

Scott Woodward:
It’s pretty good.

Casey Griffiths:
I mean, when you look at this in full perspective, you know, sometimes I’ll say to my classes, Which of the glories is closest to the world we live in right now? They’ll usually say, Oh, well, the telestial kingdom. We’re in a telestial kingdom. This probably still doesn’t quite capture it, but we usually say, So, imagine the world we live in right now with all of its splendor and glory and beauty, with no war, famine, hunger, poverty, disease, or death. That’s the telestial kingdom. That’s where a murderer goes to. That’s a pretty merciful plan, right?

Scott Woodward:
How merciful. How merciful is our God. It boggles the mind.

Casey Griffiths:
It takes away from us any motivation to try and scare people into being righteous, basically, because, I mean, we think that a really, really bad person, a murderer, is still going to go to a fairly glorious location. And so at this point, the motivation isn’t going to be, Well, how do I avoid punishment? It should be, Well, how good can I be? And how high will Christ take me if I allow him to do what he does, to lift me up into the celestial realms. We’re getting past what a human mind can even comprehend when it comes to beauty and splendor and glory.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. Elder Maxwell once framed the three degrees of glory within the atonement of Jesus Christ. I like how he said this. He said, quote, “Though differing dramatically in degree, the end results of the atonement of Jesus Christ include everlasting life in the telestial kingdom.” We don’t normally use the phrase everlasting life with telestial. He did. “Better still will be the terrestrial kingdom, and of course, the most prized of all, the celestial kingdom.” I love that framing of, these are all the end results of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, being saved to the extent that we allow the Savior to save us. You just sit back, gobsmacked about the mercy of God being explained here. It’s hard to take in sometimes, honestly, Casey.

Casey Griffiths:
It really is. And that might be the most important contribution of the vision, is it teaches us the character of God and how merciful he is and how… You know what? Unless you are dead set on not receiving any glory, like you’re fighting against it with all of your will, he’s going to get you some glory. He’s not interested in punishment. He’s interested in a reward.

Scott Woodward:
As we move on with the next couple of verses, they describe what qualifies people for the telestial kingdom. They’ve already given some qualifications. Now we move on to kind of part two of the telestial. And gain, as you just kind of think through this, you’re like, Man, God is so merciful that these people, with a short thousand-year pit stop in hell, okay, let’s just make sure that’s still there. They will be thrust down to hell to suffer for their own sins. That’s true. But they will be redeemed from that into a kingdom that surpasses our understanding. There is a little dip there, Casey. Let’s not downplay that. But ultimately, this is going to be really good for almost everybody, right? Anyone who’s not a Son of Perdition. Let’s go to part two of this telestial vision. So Joseph and Sidney now describe these telestial people as those who align themselves variously with, quote, “Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas,” meaning Peter, “Christ, John, Moses, Elias, Esaias, Isaiah, or Enoch.” We should pause right there and be like, Hold on, those are really, really important good people. I thought he was going to have a list of really horrible folks. These are those who align themselves with Stalin and Hitler and Mussolini.

Scott Woodward:
He doesn’t do that. These are good. Even Jesus is on there. But, and this is the crucial point they want to point out, “they received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.” Okay, there’s the beating heart of the whole matter. So apparently there’s a difference between being a groupie for Paul or a groupie for Peter or even a groupie for Jesus, and actually receiving the testimony of Jesus, receiving Jesus’s gospel, receiving Jesus’s servants, the prophets, and receiving the everlasting covenant. Really important distinction is being made here.

Casey Griffiths:
Loyalty to anything other than the gospel of Jesus Christ leads to danger. It’s interesting that the name Jesus is included in that list, though, too.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, you can align yourself with Christ but not actually receive his gospel or a testimony of him or his everlasting covenant. That’s thought-provoking.

Casey Griffiths:
If we’re being really honest here, there are people that love the idea of Jesus, but not the gospel of Jesus Christ, right? That are completely on board and think Jesus is a great person and, you know, maybe cherry-pick a couple of teachings here and there that they try and live, but don’t fully commit to the gospel of Jesus Christ. That is so interesting.

Scott Woodward:
We’re not talking about terrestrial here. We’re talking about telestial.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
So they go on to say that these, quote, “Will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up onto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud” when Christ returns. Remember earlier verses said, they will be the ones who descend with Christ when he comes to reign on the earth. That’s the celestial people. This group will not be that group that’s caught up and descends with him. These are characterized as those who are, quote, “Liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers,” meaning sexually immoral, “and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” In other words, rather than learning to, like, overcome the natural, sinful tendencies of their flesh, they indulged them as a matter of course, and they did not repent. The celestial kingdom, Casey, is not described as those who lived flawless moral lives. It’s described as those who received Christ and his covenant and repented and got baptized and overcame by faith. The difference between the kingdoms of glory isn’t like, not-sinners in the celestial, kind-of-sinners in the terrestrial and mega-sinners in the telestial. That’s not how it’s described.

Scott Woodward:
It’s those who received Jesus, repented of their sins, and overcame by faith, those who were less valiant in the testimony of Jesus and those who didn’t receive Christ, his gospel, or the everlasting covenant. It’s not to say that anyone who’s ever lied is going to the telestial kingdom. Anyone who’s ever committed sexual immorality is going to the telestial kingdom. It’s those who embrace that lifestyle, embrace the things of the flesh, do not repent, do not try to embrace the gospel of Christ and overcome by faith, that great phrase earlier. That’s the distinction, I think, that’s being made here, which I think is important for those of us who’ve been sinners, those of us who’ve done things we regret, we need to hear that, I think, from time to time.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, it’s a great insight to just know that it’s not perfection that’s required, and we’re not perfecting ourselves. That’s something Latter-day Saints get accused of all the time. We’re perfected through Christ. We’re flawed, failing, struggling people. But Christ and our acceptance of Christ is really what changes things to where we become exalted. And the way Section 76 kind of frames this, as these people accepted Christ fully, these people accepted but weren’t valiant in their testimony, and these people just didn’t accept Christ. And these people rejected Christ, if we’re adding in the Sons of Perdition as well, really reframes and tells us, Hey, this is what the test actually is in this life.

Scott Woodward:
And that’s the crucial thing, right? I remember Hugh Nibley saying, “None of us are very smart. None of us are very strong. None of us are very beautiful. None of us are very talented. None of us are very anything.” He said this. And then he said, “So the only two things we can actually be very good at are repenting and forgiving.” He said, That’s the only two things we can actually be really good at. None of us are going to master anything else. This is coming from a very smart man. I think Hugh Nibley is pretty high up there on the smart chart. He said, We’re all pretty dumb. None of us are very anything. Don’t try to get into the celestial kingdom by your own merits. It won’t work. You can’t. You receive Christ, you repent of your sins, and then you just try to stay valiant to that relationship. And guess what? You’re going to mess up a lot. And so continue to repent. It’s the gospel of repentance, consistent improvement, consistent recognition of where adjustments need to be made. It’s a constant, incremental improvement in Christ. That’s verse 69. Again, maybe that’s worth highlighting.

Scott Woodward:
These are people who are made perfect in Christ, who wrought out a perfect atonement through the shedding of his blood. Receiving Jesus is the key thing, not moral flawlessness, not moral perfection.

Casey Griffiths:
Well said. There is this note that ends the vision of the telestial world, where Joseph and Sidney said that they “saw the inhabitants of the telestial world were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven. Or as the sand upon the seashore.” So there’s a lot of people in the telestial kingdom. And then they say, while they gazed upon this telestial scene, they “heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall to confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever; for they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his own works, his own dominion, in the mansions which are prepared; and they,” that is the telestial, “will be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ well, they cannot come, worlds without end.”

Scott Woodward:
“This is the end of the vision which we saw,” Joseph and Sidney report, “which we were commanded to write while we were yet in the Spirit.” And then they conclude the whole thing here by exclaiming, as best as human voices can, “Great and marvelous are the works of the Lord, and the mysteries of his kingdom which he showed unto us, which surpass all understanding in glory, and in might, and in dominion.” And then they disclosed that some of what they saw, the Lord, quote, “commanded us that we should not write,” because, they said, “it is not lawful for man to utter, neither is man capable to make them known, for they are only to be seen and understood by the power of the Holy Spirit, which God bestows on those who love him and purify themselves before him.” Only to such, as Joseph and Sidney were at this time, God “grants this privilege of seeing and knowing for themselves; that through the power and manifestation of the Spirit, while in the flesh, they may be able to bear his presence in the world of glory.” And then they conclude, “To God and the Lamb be glory, and honor, and dominion forever and ever. Amen.”

Scott Woodward:
Okay. Controversies, Casey. This section has some controversies in it. I think that’s fair to say.

Casey Griffiths:
That’s putting it mildly. There’s so much here to digest that I don’t even know where to begin. But probably the most common question that comes up after we’ve had discussions about Section 76 is, Can people progress from kingdom to kingdom? Could you go to the telestial kingdom and, you know, have a change of heart and eventually move your way up to the terrestrial kingdom and then move your way up to the celestial kingdom? And there’s a lot of back and forth on that.

Scott Woodward:
Still today, there’s controversy on this.

Casey Griffiths:
It seems like there’s been controversy among the leaders of the Church that this isn’t a totally settled question at this point, too. In fact, when we were putting together Doctrine and Covenants Central, I was like, Well, I’m going to settle this once and for all. I’m going to find, you know, the silver bullet that ends this controversy. I just couldn’t. The truth is, unless you want to set one Church leader against another, it seems like it’s not resolvable right now because there have been Church leaders that have said, Yeah, there is progression between kingdoms. Then there have been others that have said, No, absolutely not. Where God and Christ are, they cannot dwell. It says right in the verse is there.

Scott Woodward:
That’s an important verse. That’s verse 112, that speaking of telestial, “they shall be servants of the Most High, but where God and Christ dwell, they cannot come, worlds without end.” I think Joseph Fielding Smith, Spencer W. Kimball, and others interpret verse 112 to say, not possible to progress. But not all Church leaders read it like that, right?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. So the closest thing I found to an answer to the question was actually a sort of non-answer. Apparently, this question was asked of the leadership of the Church so often, that Joseph Anderson, who was the secretary to the First Presidency, had a standard letter he would issue. And I’ll just read this. He says, “The Brethren direct me to say that the Church has never announced a definite doctrine upon this point. Some of the Brethren have held the view that it was possible in the course of progression to advance from one glory to another, invoking the principle of eternal progression. Others of the brethren have taken the opposite view. But as stated, the Church has never announced a definite doctrine on the point.” So he sends that letter out on behalf of the First Presidency in 1952, and again in 1965. And I don’t know of anything authoritative from the First Presidency that has added to the debate so far. So it seems like Joseph Anderson, and he says the Brethren directed him to say this, We’re being conscientious of the fact that we have had Church leaders express various views on the problem. Most people are familiar with, you know, Elder McConkie, for instance, saying, No, there’s got to be an endpoint. It ends, like, right? And then we move on.

Scott Woodward:
There’s a final judgment.

Casey Griffiths:
There’s a final judgment. But again, it seems like what the brethren were trying to say is, Yes, there’s varying opinions on this, but no definite doctrine for now.

Scott Woodward:
Let me give two examples that represent both sides. President Kimball, this is in Miracle of Forgiveness. He says, quote, “After a person has been assigned to his place in the kingdom, either the telestial, terrestrial, or celestial, or to his exaltation, he will never advance from his assigned glory to another glory. That is eternal.” Close quote. So pretty definitive, right? And then you’ve got others, though, like Hyrum Smith, Joseph’s brother, who served as Assistant Church president, as co-president with Joseph Smith. He said, speaking of the terrestrial, middle, kingdom, he said, “Those of the terrestrial glory either advance to the celestial or recede to the telestial.” Okay, that was in 1843. Others, like Wilford Woodruff and others of the early Brethren and who knew Joseph and were there at the time when this vision was coming out. Like, a lot of them didn’t think it meant it was definitive, but over time, others started to think it was definitive, definitive. Like, Elder Talmage, in some of his writings, he’ll go from saying that it’s kind of possible to permeate kingdom to kingdom. Then later on, you’ll kind of see a shift where he says it seems pretty final. Joseph F. Smith will say, It seems mostly final, but maybe some particularly gifted people will be able to advance.

Scott Woodward:
There’s all kinds of opinion about this. I think that letter that you read by Joseph Anderson is just spot on. There’s a lot of different opinion on this, and we don’t know for sure. It’s not a temple recommend question. So you’re welcome to have your views, and that’s totally fine.

Casey Griffiths:
I love and respect every voice that we’ve entered into the discussion so far. My read on the character, attributes, and perfections of God is that it might be possible. The way I’m looking at it here, too, is, if you look in scripture, the Lord does sometimes present the plan of salvation in different ways to help people. It seems like in the Book of Mormon, the Nephites had a binary view of the plan of salvation. There’s a place of rest and there’s a place of suffering. And the Lord pulled back the curtain a little bit more in Section 76 and actually said, It’s more complicated than that, actually. And I would be okay, in fact, I wouldn’t be surprised at all, if the Lord pulled back the curtain a little bit more and said, Actually, it’s more complicated than I’ve told you originally. I know what we have right now, which are these beautiful degrees of glory and the idea that everybody receives a measure of glory, I really love. My personal understanding of God is that if a person did have a genuine change of heart, he wouldn’t cut them off and say, Sorry, you missed the deadline.

Casey Griffiths:
I think eternal progression never ends, really. I might be totally wrong. Again, I’m stating my opinion on the matter just like everybody else has done. I’m not saying I’ve solved it. And if I’m completely wrong, I’m okay with that, too.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, nobody actually knows. Maybe he’s just using language to work upon our hearts so we don’t aim for the telestial, right? I do find it interesting that the earlier Brethren leaned more toward progression in the kingdoms. It could be, maybe it’s not. We’re not sure.

Casey Griffiths:
We haven’t solved the issue. We’re just using it as a thought experiment here, right? It’s a controversy. So let me throw a controversy at you. Terrestrial people. We mentioned here that it uses some phrases to describe terrestrial people that are going to be used later on to describe work for the dead, to say those without law, those who received the gospel after they came in the flesh. Then beyond that, it feels like I can understand people that totally commit to the gospel and people that totally ignore it. But terrestrial people feel like a weird category sort of on their own. What do you think about that?

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, honestly, I have stumbled mentally over these verses. The logic of the terrestrial category kind of eludes me, if I’m being honest, Casey, because I have Nauvoo doctrine in my mind, which they don’t have at this time. But, like, for instance, “these are those who died without law.” That’s verse 72. We know that those people will have a chance. If you die without law, then there’s a chance for you to receive the gospel in the next life. It’s those who Jesus preached the gospel to in the spirit world. Verse 73 says. Okay, verse 74. “Those who receive not the testimony the glory of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards receive it in the spirit world.” Don’t they have a chance to be exalted if you didn’t hear the gospel in this life? Again, I’m thinking through the Nauvoo lens here, and not the Kirtland one in this case. These are “honorable men of the earth who are blinded by the craftiness of men?” Don’t those who were honestly deceived by others have a shot to hear the gospel in its clarity and to make an honest choice? I think so. I think so. “Those who aren’t valiant in the testimony of Jesus.”

Scott Woodward:
What does that even mean? I don’t know. The logic of this category eludes me, and I’m with Hyrum Smith on this one. When Hyrum said, specifically of the terrestrial glory, he says, “They will either advance to the celestial or they will recede to the telestial.” I totally get the logic of where Hyrum is coming from on that, given the way that these verses are described. Then given Nauvoo theology, when we learn that those who have never received the gospel have the chance to receive it in the next world and be exalted if they receive it, right. The way it’s described in Section 76 is not completely satisfying as a fixed category. But if this is talking about kind of a holding category, like Hyrum Smith is framing it as, where you can either advance or recede, then maybe that makes more sense.

Casey Griffiths:
This is another one of those that we’ve got to look at the context of the time, where Joseph and Sidney are going into the vision just believing there’s a heaven and there’s a hell, and those that believe in Christ are going to and those that don’t are going to hell. Every religion grapples with the question of, What about people that don’t know about Jesus Christ or that never get to learn religion? And Section 76 is cracking the door open and basically saying, No, there is salvation for them as well. Now, later on, the door is going to get thrown wide open, and the Lord is going to reveal that actually we can do work on behalf of those that didn’t know or didn’t make covenants in this life. And so I would look at the description of the terrestrial here as a preliminary text that needs to be augmented by later sections, like Section 127, and especially Section 128, and Section 137, that sort of say there is a way for them to be saved, too. It seems like when you add those together, the most important phrase in describing the terrestrial kingdom is “not valiant.” “These were they who were not valiant in their testimony of Jesus Christ.”

Casey Griffiths:
In other words, they know about the plan of salvation, and they’re not bad people, but they’re not valiant. And that is a tough thing to quantify, right? Like, I’m sitting here right now thinking, Am I valiant? If I haven’t seen my ministering families in a couple of months, does that mean that I’m not valiant? Or where’s the line? And maybe we want there to be lines because that gives us permission to, you know, inch as close to the line as possible. And the Savior’s deliberately left it vague so that we’re not trying to do the minimum amount of effort. We’re trying to do the maximum amount of effort that we can do.

Scott Woodward:
And keeping in mind verse 69, again, that you’re perfected in Christ, who brought out the perfect atonement. He’s the mediator of the new covenant. And so our job is to get in Christ, and then to be faithful to him in that relationship. That’s faith in Christ, to say, I didn’t do my ministering assignments, or to say… I know there’s so many ways to feel guilty about what we are and aren’t doing. None of us feel like we’re doing everything we could in every aspect of our discipleship.

Casey Griffiths:
Or at the very least, to try and create a one-size-fits-all that works for everybody there. Because being valiant might look different for me than it does for somebody else. I’ve been given a lot of advantages that other people haven’t. And being valiant for me might mean that I have to do a little bit more than somebody that has fewer advantages, right?

Scott Woodward:
Being true to the light that you’ve received.

Casey Griffiths:
And that plays nicely into later on what we learn about the idea of progression in the next life. It does still seem weird that if you’re terrestrial and you’re a decent person, you just won’t go the extra mile and be valiant. So it’s still a weird category glory, but I’m glad it’s there because it opens the door for a number of people who are good but might not be ready for celestial glory.

Scott Woodward:
Let me bring up another one for you, Casey. So is Section 76 opening the door to supporting the idea that Latter-day Saints are universalists?

Casey Griffiths:
It might be, and there’s actually addresses by the early leaders of the Church where they deal with this question because among some religious people in the 19th-century, calling you a universalist was sort of a slur. You guys are weak-sauce. You think God is going to save everybody. I have run into people before that are universalists without knowing they’re universalists who will say stuff like, Yeah, I think God’s nice, and so he’s going to save everybody. There’s a real danger there. In fact, there’s some evidence that that might have been why the vision was received so poorly by the early Saints. I read you that quote from Brigham Young. This is Joseph Young, Brigham’s brother. He said it this way. He said, “When I came to read the visions of the different glories of the eternal world and of the sufferings of the wicked, I could not believe it at first, why the Lord was going to save everybody.” And you can look at that. It’s so interesting if you adjust his tone, like he’s excited the Lord is going to save everybody, or he’s sort of like, What? The Lord is going to save everybody? What’s the point in everything that we’re doing?

Casey Griffiths:
Why join a church? And that is kind of the weakness of universalism, is the universalists themselves never really congealed into a church. They sort of united with the Unitarians and became the Unitarian Universalist Church that we know today. It does require some structure and some law in order to do good and organize yourselves in a way that you can go out and bless and make a big impact in alleviating human suffering. So I would say we’re universalists, but not fully. On the one hand, God does offer some measure of salvation to all people. Everybody gets resurrected, even Sons of Perdition. Everybody is saved from the second death except Sons of Perdition. And Sons of Perdition don’t seem to be a huge category. There’s not a lot of people in the scriptures described as Sons of Perdition. And so in that sense, we’re universalists. We’d also have to qualify the term salvation, right? Does salvation mean that you live forever? Does salvation mean that you get resurrected? Does salvation mean that you overcome your sins? Does salvation mean that you become like God and Christ and dwell with them?

Casey Griffiths:
Dallin H. Oaks gave this talk once, and it was the most Dallin H. Oaks thing I’ve ever heard in my life because he’s got a legal mind, and he comes out and says, “As salvation is defined, there are nine types of salvation that Latter-day Saints believe in.” And wow. And again, he listed some of the same categories. We’re saved from death, meaning we’re resurrected. We’re saved from sin, meaning we’re redeemed. We’re exalted, and so on and so forth. So, yeah, I don’t think calling us universalists is fair because we do believe that God has these expectations. But universalism itself was a fluid idea. What I will say is that the vision sort of really shocked people in Joseph Smith’s day by teaching us that we’ve always believed God is merciful, but did we know he was that merciful? Did we know how badly he wants to bless and help people? And bring them into his presence? That’s maybe a new idea that the vision introduced.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, the sweeping mercy of God highlighted from the beginning to the end of this revelation is just breathtaking. We have not solved any of the controversies, but there’s food for thought.

Casey Griffiths:
Food for thought. So let’s talk consequences. Saying Section 76 is consequential is really underselling the point. It’s one of the most consequential sections in the Doctrine and Covenants, and maybe the most consequential thing to come out of Joseph Smith’s translation of the Bible. So theologically, here’s a couple of takeaways. Joseph and Sidney Rigdon learn that the traditional and the scripturally-supported heaven or hell view of the afterlife is not incorrect, but it’s incomplete, and thus can be misinterpreted. So rather than supplanting prior scriptural teachings about heaven and hell, the vision at once supports the truthfulness of those teachings, but it also kind of radically reorients our conceptions of both. For example, if we’re talking in terms of hell, we’re reoriented to understand that it’s not a permanent place of suffering. That’s already been set up in Section 19. It’s not a permanent residence for anybody except the Sons of Perdition, a very small group of people. Those of the telestial glory who did not accept Christ and repent of their sins will indeed be cast there, but only for a time, after which they’re redeemed into the telestial region of glory. So in terms of heaven, Section 76 reorients us to understand that heaven is an eternal world of glory, but that there are different kinds of heaven.

Casey Griffiths:
All three of the degrees of glory are described as a heaven, I think, in this particular one. And the degree of glory that you qualify to inherit is not determined by the degree of your sinfulness, but the degree by which you receive Christ and receive his everlasting gospel.

Scott Woodward:
That’s a big deal, right? It’s not saying all the previous scriptural passages in the Bible, Book of Mormon, and even previous Doctrine and Covenants that divide salvation to heaven and hell are inaccurate. You’re saying this is nuancing the understanding of what heaven means and the permanence of hell or something like that. But heaven is subdivided into three different degrees of glory.

Casey Griffiths:
It’s broadening the borders of heaven, basically, to say, Hey, there’s more reward than punishment in the afterlife. In fact, eternal punishment is only reserved for this really small group of people. Instead, everybody receives some kind of heaven, some degree of glory, and God rewards. For me, that’s a huge deal because of what it reveals about the nature of God and how God looks at us and thinks about us and works with us.

Scott Woodward:
God’s mercy is so sweeping and so big and so broad. It doesn’t go so far as to endorse pure universalism, but Section 76 is painting an unmistakable portrait of Christ as one who mercifully saves all but the Sons of Perdition into one of three regions of sublime heavenly glory, even the least of which was described as “surpassing all understanding.” That is just a view of God and Christ that I think, doesn’t get put out there enough. Let’s shout that from the rooftops. Also, Joseph Smith himself offered a reflection a couple of years later after Section 76 was received, that in his mind is one of the great outcomes of this. He said, “Nothing could be more pleasing to the Saints upon the order of the kingdom of the Lord than the light which burst upon the world through this vision. Every law, every commandment, every promise, every truth, and every point touching the destiny of man, from Genesis to Revelation, witnesses the fact that that document is a transcript from the records of the eternal world.” He says, “The sublimity of the ideas, the purity of the language, the scope for action, the continued duration for completion, in order that the heirs of salvation may confess the Lord and bow the knee. The rewards for faithfulness and the punishment for sins are so much beyond the narrow-mindedness of men that every honest man is constrained to exclaim: It came from God!”

Casey Griffiths:
So good. And let me add one more quote. This is from Lorenzo Snow. I really like this. He says, “God loves his offspring, the human family. His design is not simply to furnish happiness to the few here called Latter-day Saints. The plan and scheme he is now carrying out is for universal salvation.” He used those words. He said, “Not only for the salvation of the Latter-day Saints, but for the salvation of every man and woman on the face of the earth, for those also in the spirit world, and for those who may hereafter come upon the face of the Earth. It is for the salvation of every son and daughter of Adam.” And then he adds, “They are the offspring of the Almighty. He loves them all. And his plans are for the salvation of the whole. And he will bring all up into that position in which they will be as happy and as comfortable as they are willing to be.” I reframe that to say, basically, God isn’t looking to punish people. He’s looking to reward people. He raises us up as high as we’re willing to go. And again, I don’t know what the end of that is, if a person wants to progress, but the Lord wants to lift us up and reward us and isn’t as interested in punishing us and condemning us. That’s a big takeaway for me from Section 76.

Scott Woodward:
Such a paradigm shift on the nature of God, which is so needed. Wow. Well, Casey, that was a really fun ride through Section 76. One of the greatest revelations ever received in the life of Joseph Smith. Maybe we can say in the life of any prophet of God down through time that we have recorded. That’s not overstating the point. This is such a contribution to our understanding that it sits up there with some of the greatest revelations ever vouch-saved to mankind.

Casey Griffiths:
It changed everything.

Scott Woodward:
Honor to be with you today. That was fun.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. Thank you very much. And next time, we’ll dive into the Book of Revelation. So that’s something to look forward to. We’ll see you next time.

Scott Woodward:
We’ll see you then. Thanks, Casey.