Scott Woodward:
The object of our earthly existence is that we may become the sons and daughters of God in the fullest sense of the word.

Casey Griffiths:
You are a child of God. Everybody is. The challenge in this life is to become a child of Christ.

Scott Woodward:
Heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, right. You become an heir of the Kingdom of God through covenant with Christ. It’s this idea of we’re now part of his family as we take upon ourselves the name of Jesus. We are his. He has claimed us. Therefore, his atoning blood now fully applies to us.

Casey Griffiths:
We’ve got to stress what makes us different.

Scott Woodward:
I dare you, everyone listening out there, I dare you to teach this more openly and freely.

Casey Griffiths:
We do kind of need to talk about what makes us unique, or we’re sort of missing the point of the Restoration. We’ve made it to, sort of like, I want to call it phase two of the Restoration. Now there’s a church, now we’re sending out missionaries, now we’re gathering, like, the next group of converts. So we start out these sections talking about the Whitmers who we’re familiar with, who’ve been with us for a little while now, but we’re going to bring in some really interesting, colorful characters that are going to significantly impact the Church as we go on.

Scott Woodward:
Yes. So today we’re doing Doctrine and Covenants 30 through 36. That’s a lot of sections with some really important consequences to several of these sections that are going to impact really, like, the future trajectory of the entire Church. So thanks for being with us, everyone, today, and let’s get into it. What kind of framing would you put on these revelations as a collective?

Casey Griffiths:
A couple of frameworks here. First, you might remember an episode or two ago that Oliver Cowdery in Section 28 is commanded to lead the Church’s first mission. And the commandment is to go all the way to the edge of the American nation to “the borders by the Lamanites.” That’s the wording in the section. And these sections, in one way or another, almost all of them connect to that Lamanite mission.

Yeah.

Casey Griffiths:
The second thing is, is all of these sections are about early converts to the Church. So a lot of them come from the results of the missionaries that Oliver Cowdery is leading to Missouri. But some of them are just people that come into contact with the Book of Mormon in some way, shape, or form.

Scott Woodward:
And just to paint a picture of, like, how early on we are, like you’re saying, like, the Church is like six months old when Section 30 is given, and there’s only 62 members of the Church total. So we’re on the tails of the Lamanite Mission commandment in Section 28. Okay, keep going. So where should we go from there?

Casey Griffiths:
So first missionaries are going out. Other people are hearing about the Book of Mormon through word of mouth or other ways. What all of these sections show in one way or another is how the Book of Mormon begins to bring people to Jesus Christ and to his church, and then fills them with a desire to help others do the same. When you review the story of these early converts, it also shows how the Lord invites people to come unto him and how they respond to his calls. And some of the recipients of these revelations become really important leaders in the Church. Some leave immediately, others do really well for a little time, and then fall into apostasy. When I teach this, a lot of times I say that Sections 30 to 36 are kind of the personification of the Parable of the Sower that the Savior gives in Matthew 13. Remember the Parable of the Sower?

Yes. Jesus said, A sower went forth to sow, and he starts spreading seeds, and some seed falls by. Let me see if I remember the four different types of soils, right? Some seed falls by the wayside, like, side of the street.

Casey Griffiths:
The wayside is more like that’s the place where everybody walks. It’s when you’re hiking and you see the trail that everybody stepped on. It’s like the sidewalk, I guess, would be the only thing you’d say. In the Savior’s terminology, it’s like throwing a plant seed onto a sidewalk and expecting something to happen. That’s how some people are going to respond to the gospel.

Scott Woodward:
Okay, so we got the sidewalk, then you’ve got the stony places, then you’ve got the thorny soil, is that right? And then you got the good ground, like, the, the prime ground. And Jesus talks about how the word of God is received differently based on the nature of the soil of the heart, if you will. Is that a fair summary of the parable? And then like those who receive the seed on good ground, they become very fruitful. Those who are thorny, like for a little while, they do pretty good. Then the thorns, like, how does it say it, it chokes out the word. And then I can’t remember the stony. Is it the stony one where like the birds come and eat it or is that the wayside ones?

Casey Griffiths:
I think the wayside is where the birds come and eat it. The stony places is where it grows a little bit. The thorny places is where it grows, but then it’s choked out by thorns. And then there’s the good ground that the Savior said again, this is Matthew chapter 13. “Other fell into good ground and brought forth fruit, some in hundredfold, some 60-fold and some 30-fold.” So this is the seed that not only grows up, but produces other fruit and other fruit and continues to grow. That’s maybe how you think of these converts. These, these sections are all fairly short, and most of them are addressed to just one or two people. Some of these converts are like the wayside. They almost immediately reject the restored gospel. Some are like the stony places where they grow for a short time, then they fall away. Others are like the seed among thorns where they grow until they’re destroyed by adversity or challenges or complexity. And some are like the good ground where they bring forth fruit. They bring hundreds or even thousands of people into the gospel.

Scott Woodward:
Sounds fun. Let’s start then in Doctrine and Covenants 30. What’s the immediate background here, Casey?

Casey Griffiths:
So Doctrine and Covenants 30 is three revelations. You know, they, they have this habit in the early Church of taking these short revelations and combining them together to create a longer one. This one comes to three members of the Whitmer family. And names you’ll be familiar with already: David Whitmer, who’s one of the Three Witnesses, Peter Whitmer, Jr., and John Whitmer, all brothers. These revelations come around the time that the Church holds its second conference in Fayette, New York, which must have been a pretty productive couple of days because that’s where we got Section 28, which sets up the mission. Section 29, which we spent all last week talking about this profound call to repentance/exploration of the Plan of Salvation.

Scott Woodward:
Eschatological revelation, I believe it was.

Casey Griffiths:
You’re going to make me say that again. I don’t want to keep saying… I can’t say it. I just, my, my mouth isn’t equipped for it. You’re more academic than me. Anyway, a couple of things we know from the conference, from the extant minutes. We know that about 35 people have joined the Church since the last conference, which brings the total number of Church members to a grand total of about 62. So the Church is still small enough to fit in, you know, one farmhouse, but now it’s getting crowded in the farmhouse. During the conference, Joseph Smith reads Isaiah 5, which talks about the broken state of Israel and then prophesies of an ensign to the nations that will be raised to signal the beginning of the Lord’s gathering his people together. It’s from Isaiah 5:26. At the conference, too, Oliver Cowdery reads the Articles and Covenants, that’s Section 20, and Joseph Smith gets up and comments on it. Everybody at the meeting sang and prayed on behalf of Oliver and Peter Whitmer, Jr. because they’re getting ready to go on their mission to the Lamanites. And Joseph Smith later marks this conference by writing, “During this time, we had much of the power of God manifested among us.

Casey Griffiths:
“The Holy Ghost came upon us and filled us with joy unspeakable, and peace and faith and hope and charity abounded in our midst.” Then he puts in these three revelations, which, again, were, were originally all separate in the Book of Commandments, which comes out in 1833, then get combined into one revelation in the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants, and have been that way ever since. So really three separate revelations. Each one is about four verses each, but combine them together, and that’s where you got Section 30.

Scott Woodward:
Verses 1 through 4 are to David Whitmer. And the Lord opens this revelation by mildly rebuking David Whitmer. Here’s what he says in verse 1. He says, “You have feared man and have not relied on me for strength as you ought.” That’s the opening of the revelation. Instead, he says, “your mind has been on the things of the earth more than on the things of me, your Maker, and the ministry whereunto you have been called,” suggesting that David had allowed earthly things to distract him from fulfilling his previous calling. You’ll remember back in Doctrine and Covenants 18, he’s already been called to cry repentance, but he’s been distracted from that. How? Why? Let’s keep going. The Lord says, “And you have not given heat unto my Spirit, and to those who were set over you.” This is going to be a pattern in David’s life, pushing against Joseph Smith. “But have been persuaded by those whom I have not commanded.” This is a likely a reference to David’s recent belief in and support of Hiram Page’s revelatory claims, which matter had just been resolved at that conference. Remember back in Section 28, that that was a big, a big deal with Hiram Page receiving supposed revelations through a seer stone about the location of Zion, et cetera.

Scott Woodward:
So David was hook, line, and sinker, all in. And this particular conference, when they resolved that, the Whitmers got on board as well with the, the correct, you know, the corrective that the Lord offered here to Hiram Page. David, the Lord instructs him, is to ponder on these things and remain at your father’s house for now until he receives, quote, “further commandments and attend to the ministry God has called him to.” Now, here’s the backstory of what’s going on in these verses that helps me to make sense of them. So this counsel to remain at his father’s house is likely due to the fact that now 25-year-old David Whitmer was at this time considering marriage to Julia Ann Jolly, whom, by the way, he does marry four months later. And so therefore, he was thinking about moving out and buying his own farm at this time. And the Lord says, Don’t do that. Remain at your father’s house until you receive further commandments. Now, had David ignored this simple commandment and purchased a farm, he would have been in a very difficult position four months later when the Lord commanded the Saints in New York to leave and go to Ohio and gather there.

Scott Woodward:
And so a really practical counsel here. David, focus on the ministry. Keep your mind off of the things of this world. Focus on what I’ve asked you to do. Don’t listen to those who are not set to preside over you. Don’t be persuaded by those who I haven’t commanded. He’s got some distractions, and Casey, I can, I can empathize. When I was 25, engaged to my now-wife, I get it. There’s, there’s some distracting things going on in your life. So I would characterize these, this revelation to David as a gentle corrective rather than a major rebuke.

Casey Griffiths:
I think David’s in good shape at this point in his life. And we’ve talked a lot about David Whitmer, you know. He becomes the second stake president. The first one is Joseph Smith himself. Joseph Smith gives him a blessing that says he’ll be a successor if he remains faithful. And it seems like, you know, nothing major going on. He’s just a little bit more focused on worldly things than he should be. Now, we’ve mentioned this before, too, but David does eventually leave the Church eight years after this.

Scott Woodward:
Is it safe to say he was persuaded by “those whom I have not commanded, not giving heed to those who are set over you.” Back to verse 2 in terms of how he ultimately falls. Was that fair?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. And it’s also fair to say that this was a problem that he always kind of deals with, that he had a hard time being counseled sometimes. After he leaves the Church, writes a pamphlet in 1887 called An Address to All Believers in Christ, where he kind of lays out his problems with Joseph Smith and the Restoration, while at the same time talking about his testimony of the Restoration. In fact, a lot of people use this when they’re putting together narratives about translation. According to David, he said Joseph told him that “we would have to be guided into truth and obtain the will of the Lord.” It’s possible that the Lord’s warnings to David that he had “not given heed unto my Spirit, and to those yet set over you” are referencing David’s feelings at the time. So this could be a negative seed that’s going to grow into something that eventually causes David to leave the Church, and he never comes back. So he’s our first person. Keep him in mind, and at the end of the episode, we’ll come back to all these people and kind of say, Well, where did they end up?

Scott Woodward:
And again, David’s complicated. He has the most powerful testimony of the Book of Mormon on Earth, rivaled maybe only by Oliver and Martin Harris. But, yeah, serious problems with authority, particularly Joseph Smith’s, so. Okay, let’s go to verse 5 through 8. This is revelation to Peter Whitmer, Jr. David’s brother. This is really relevant. You mentioned the overarching storyline today in these sections is going to be the Lamanite mission. So Oliver Cowdery was called to that in Section 28. But now this verse, verse 5 through 8, now calls Peter Whitmer to, quote, “take your journey with your brother Oliver and declare my gospel.” So he gets to go with Oliver to the western border of the United States to, quote, “build up my church among the Lamanites.” Peter is made junior companion here. He’s told to “give heed unto the words and advice of and be afflicted in all his afflictions and to lift up his heart unto the Lord in prayer and faith for their deliverance on this mission.” Peter will be a faithful companion on this mission, which we will talk more about in a couple of moments. Just a great short little revelation to Peter, promised conditionally in verse 8, If he gives heed unto all these things and is diligent in keeping God’s commandments, he will be blessed unto eternal life.

Casey Griffiths:
Can I throw in an interesting little historical tidbit here?

Scott Woodward:
Yes.

Casey Griffiths:
So Peter does go all the way to the borders of the United States, and they arrive in this little frontier village called Independence that’s going to figure hugely into the story down the line. But when they get there, they’re anticipating going into Indian territory and teaching the gospel. But all kinds of legal boondoggle keeps them from going in there, and they kind of have to settle down and wait for things to resolve themselves. So while they’re doing this, Peter takes on work as a tailor in Independence. And one of Peter’s clients during this time is a guy named Alexander Doniphan, who later on is going to be instrumental in helping the Saints during the later difficulties they face in Missouri. In fact, Alexander Doniphan literally saves Joseph Smith’s life. We’ll get to that story. Then, he, as he’s settling down in Missouri, he’s still working as a tailor. An Mary Elizabeth Leitner, who later on moves there, recalls, “I went to work for Peter Whitmer, who was a tailor by trade and had just married. He was crowded with his work, and Lilburn W. Boggs offered him a room in his house as he had just been elected Lieutenant Governor and wanted Peter to make a suit for inauguration ceremonies.

Casey Griffiths:
“Peter did make the suit, and I stitched the collars and faced the coat. Mr. Boggs often came in to note the progress of the work.”

Scott Woodward:
How did Mr. Boggs repay Peter and the Latter-day Saints for this kindness?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, this is one of those, Oh, boy, if only they knew. Lilburn Boggs is one of the most infamous names in Latter-day Saint history. I think Joseph Smith referred to him as, like, Pontius Pilate or Nero. Like, he’s not remembered fondly, but it is interesting that Peter Whitmer develops this relationship with Lilburn Boggs while he’s there. And he stays in Missouri, never goes back, leading the Saints through all their ups and downs and through thick and thin until he passes away in 1836. So he is a Whitmer that never leaves the Church. And we could speculate about what had happened if he lived until 1838 when his family left, but we know for sure he didn’t leave.

Scott Woodward:
He dies in, what, 1834, like not too many years hence.

Casey Griffiths:
1836 is when he passes away, two years before his family leaves. And again, we could speculate all day, but we just don’t know what he would have done. But he does die faithful in the gospel. That much is indisputable.

Scott Woodward:
Then their other brother, John Whitmer. We get the Lord’s words to him in verses 9, 10, and 11. This is where the Lord counsels John Whitmer, to “commence from this time forth to proclaim my gospel as with the voice of a trump,” and he is to go in labor, not on the Lamanite mission, but over at his friend Philip Burroughs’ home near Fayette, who’s called out by name here. And this is a place where several Church members, the home where several Church members would gather. Church meetings were held at the Burroughs home at this time. In fact, there’s, there’s some controversy. We don’t know for sure whether or not Philip Burroughs actually joins the Church. Some accounts say no, and some say yes, but he was friendly at this time. Some accounts say that he was invited to come and gather to Zion in Missouri, but he does not. As late as June 1860, he’s still living in New York along with his family, but he was friendly to the Saints and opened his home up to the preaching of the gospel in his home. We know that much for sure.

Casey Griffiths:
Philip Burroughs appears to be wayside, right? He’s not a major recipient of the section, but it sounds like John Whitmer does a lot of work with him and does the best that he can. And other missionaries follow up, like Parley P. Pratt goes in and preaches a sermon at the Burroughs home. In fact, Parley P. Pratt writes this. He said, “I preached to a large concourse of people, assembled at the house of a Mr. Burroughs. The Holy Ghost came upon me mightily. I spoke the word of God with power, reasoning out of the scriptures and the Book of Mormon. The people were convinced, overwhelmed in tears, and four heads of families came forward expressing their faith and were baptized.” Unfortunately, we don’t know if Philip Burroughs was one of those people, even though another local resident later recorded, this is a guy named Diedrich Willers, that Philip was at one time attracted to the LDS Church but did not become a member. There’s other sources that say that he did. So in 1832, Samuel Smith, the Prophet’s brother, and Orson Hyde, visit the Burroughs home saying that “he,” meaning Philip Burroughs, “was glad to see us, and Sister Burroughs was strong in the faith.

Casey Griffiths:
“We held a meeting in the schoolhouse. A considerable number of people came to hear and paid good attention.” But Orson Hyde also writes, “Brother Burroughs was rather low, but left him about persuaded to go to Zion.” So he’s about persuaded to leave and go to Zion. However, the, the land records that we have indicate that as late as 1860, Philip Burroughs is still in New York with his family. So he’s the wayside. He never fully accepts the gospel and kind of stays behind.

Scott Woodward:
Well, there you have it. So that’s Section 30, some straight talk to David Whitmer, an invitation to Peter Whitmer, Jr. to go on the Lamanite mission, and then some counsel for John Whitmer to do some local missionary work, if you will. So in terms of consequences of this section, we are going to hold off until we get to Section 32 because they actually go together hand in hand.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
The consequences of this section, I think the major outcome is the Lamanite Mission. So pause right there and let’s head over to Section 31.

Casey Griffiths:
So Section 31 is kind of a temporary deviation from the Lamanite Mission, but it does introduce us to one of the more interesting characters in the Restoration, a guy named Thomas B. Marsh. Marsh is from Charlestown, Massachusetts, and he’s affiliated with a Methodist Church, but he hears rumors about a new scripture as early as 1829. He later on writes a little bit about his story, and he wrote, “I thought the Spirit required me to make a journey West.” So he goes from Massachusetts to Palmyra, which is not a short trip, to be honest with you. It’s quite a ways. And while he’s in Palmyra, he runs into a man named Martin Harris. And at this point, the Book of Mormon hadn’t been printed and bound, but Martin Harris shows him a proof sheet, like the way they printed the Book of Mormon. You can see this if you go to the Grandin Press in Palmyra, was that they would print a huge sheet that had 16 pages on it, and then they would fold it up and cut off the ends and bam, 16 pages of the Book of Mormon, front and back. Apparently, Thomas B. Marsh takes one of these proof sheets, and that’s his exposure to the Book of Mormon.

Casey Griffiths:
And while he’s there, he also meets with Oliver Cowdery, who gives him the backstory, and he goes home with a proof sheet containing the first 16 pages of the Book of Mormon. He’s so impacted by this that when he learns that the Church has been organized the next year, he moves to Palmyra to join with the Church, and he’s baptized at the second conference of the Church by David Whitmer and ordained an elder by Oliver Cowdery. And it’s at this conference where Thomas B. Marsh is baptized that this revelation is given to him. So he’s not an outcome of the Lamanite Mission, but he is there when the missionaries are getting ready to go. And he’s going to be a pretty big deal in the Church for quite a while. There’s a lot of stories about him.

Scott Woodward:
Yes, indeed. Yeah, and this would be the last of a couple of revelations that Joseph received in September of 1830. This kind of caps off to September. It was a very fruitful month. And just before the conference and just after the conference, we got four major revelations being received there, Section 28, 29, 30, and now 31. The Lord immediately begins with a compliment to Thomas because of his faith in the Lord’s work. With the backstory you just told us, you can understand why the Lord would compliment that, right. 16 pages of the Book of Mormon. Now, maybe he’s read the entire Book of Mormon by now, but it only took 16 pages for him to get on board in terms of the truthfulness of the Restoration that was underway. Then, like you said, as soon as the Church is organized, he’s like, I want to be part of that. He’ll move his family. Speaking of his family, the Lord mentions them a couple of times in this revelation in verse 2. He mentions the afflictions that have come upon him because of his family. “Nevertheless, I will bless you and your family, yea, your little ones, and the day will come that they will believe and know the truth and be one with you in my church.”

Scott Woodward:
Do we know if his family was in opposition to him at this time? Or what’s the backstory of the concerns that are being addressed here? Do you know? I’m actually not sure.

Casey Griffiths:
I don’t know more about that except that a lot of times, Thomas B. Marsh’s apostasy is tied to his family. You might remember the famous cream stripping story. You remember those?

Scott Woodward:
I do. But his wife was already a member of the Church, wasn’t she, at that time?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, that doesn’t happen until 1838. Which is years and years down the road, and is probably a gross oversimplification of what happens. But it does maybe present the idea that his family relationships were complicated. And later on, I’m spoiling the whole thing, but he does leave the Church, and he doesn’t come back until his wife passes away. Then he gathers to Utah and he rejoins the Church and dies in full fellowship. That might be one suggestion here that there’s complicated relationships within his family. This is me speculating.

Scott Woodward:
But yeah, it’s definitely suggested in the the text. So, in fact, down in verse 5, skipping down a little bit, the Lord says, “Therefore, thrust in your sickle with all your soul, and your sins are forgiven you, and you shall be laden with sheaves upon your back, for the laborer is worthy of his hire.” Then again, the Lord comes back to his family and says, “Wherefore, your family shall live.” This is clearly a stress on Thomas B. Marsh’s heart. And now, part of the context is, as you mentioned, he’s from Boston, and Thomas may have been worried about moving his family from their home in Boston, Massachusetts, to Fayette, New York, to be closer to other members of the Church. May have been some resistance there or other concerns, but that’s clearly on his mind. And the Lord continues right in the midst of calling him on a mission, calling him to go and serve, calling him to preach, simultaneously comforting him that his family is going to be okay, that he’s going to be all right, that his family will live, that him serving in the Church is not going to hurt those relationships. And so that’s interesting. And I think there’s a lot of modern folk who get called on missions, both young elders and sisters, as well as mission presidents or senior couples who have concerns about, What’s going to happen to my family when I leave?

Scott Woodward:
And so I think this is pretty relatable stuff.

Casey Griffiths:
I’m going to point out one phrase that just resonates with me. When the Lord tells him what to teach, “you shall declare the things which have been revealed to my servant, Joseph Smith, Jr.” This just brings me back in mind of one of my old teachers, a guy named Joseph Fielding McConkie, who emphasized to us that, look, we have to teach what’s unique. Like, a lot of times when we teach the gospel, we’re building on common beliefs, which is good, right? When we speak to people, we also have to be talking about what we don’t have in common, what’s unique. I stole a quote from Brother McConkie, if I can. He says, “This revelation announces how we, as a people, are to present our message to the world. Though it is common practice among our members of the Church to seek common ground with those who profess faith in Christ by an appeal to the Bible, the direction given in this revelation is that we declare the things which have been revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith. The way we answer questions about our faith ought to be by finding the quickest and most direct route through the Sacred Grove.

Casey Griffiths:
“That is our ground. It is sacred ground. It is where testimonies are born and the greatest truths of heaven are unveiled. We claim no priesthood, keys, power, authority, or doctrines that do not trace themselves directly to heaven. All that we have, and this includes our faith in the Bible, and our understanding of it, has come to us by direct revelation in this dispensation.” And I remember Brother McConkie would say, Hey, trying to build on common beliefs is like going into a person’s home and saying, Hey, we have a vacuum cleaner we’re selling here. It’s exactly like the one you already have. Are you interested? He said, No, we’ve got to stress what makes us different. That means going to the revelations given to Joseph Smith. That’s how we convince people that we’re the real deal is by pointing out how we’re not really the same.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, and I love Joseph Smith’s attitude in this. I think he says this a couple of years later in Nauvoo, but he says, to people interested in the Church, in investigating the Church. He said, Bring with you all the good that you have and then see if we can’t add to it. He said, You don’t have to give up anything good that you believe. Keep believing that and let’s see if we can’t add to it. There is a lot that we have in common with our fellow Christians, especially, but other people of good faith all around the world. We have a lot in common. What would make us attractive to them? Maybe not the common ground so much as that which makes us unique, what Joseph said, see if we can add to it. And we can add a lot. We can, there are keys, there is authority, there are particular ordinances, the theology of the temple, et cetera, that we, we have a lot to add. Yes, we claim the Bible as well, but we have more. We’re Christianity plus. In fact, there’s a, an evangelical friend of ours that we share this friend, Casey, and he was once on Facebook.

Scott Woodward:
He was asking about what he should call Latter-day Saints. He was writing a book about the Latter-day Saints, and he was writing it to an evangelical audience. And so instead of calling us Mormons or calling us something other than Christian, he was trying to, he was grasping for a phrase, a word, and he said, What should I call a Latter-day Saints relative to Bible-believing creedal Christians? What are they? He was posing it out there on Facebook for ideas, and I just threw this one out there. I said, How about Christians Plus? Maybe it’s because I just ordered Disney Plus. But Christians Plus is like, We do believe all the, all the fundamental tenets of Christianity, plus there’s additional revelations on top of that. Joseph Smith once said something almost exactly like that. He said, We have all that the Christian world has and an independent revelation in the bargain. So, yeah, verse four, when it emphasizes, “You shall declare the things which have been revealed to my servant, Joseph Smith, Jr.” This is not to say, discount all the stuff we have in common, but there is a time when we ought to emphasize the unique offerings that we have. See if we can’t add to what you’ve got.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, and hopefully, we do so in a way that isn’t offensive. We’re not criticizing other religions, but we do kind of need to talk about what makes us unique, or we’re sort of missing the point of the Restoration.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. And look in verse seven, how the Lord comforts Thomas in the midst of what’s going to be kind of an up-and-down ministry for him. He says, “Yea, I will open the hearts of the people, and they will receive you, and I will establish a church by your hand, and you shall strengthen them and prepare them against the time when they shall be gathered. But be patient in afflictions, revile not against those that revile.” Isn’t that like the most instant instinct? Don’t we want to revile when someone reviles back against us? Someone says something nasty about us or about our beliefs, and the impulse is to shoot something back, right. I think we call those mirror neurons in psychology. Treating someone the way they’re treating you, like when they’re being a jerk, you want to be a jerk back. He says, careful with that impulse. Be meek and steadfast. “Govern your house in meekness and be steadfast,” he says. Back to his family there. One other verse I wanted to highlight in this section before we conclude this one is verse 12, where the Lord says to him, “Pray always, lest you enter into temptation and lose your reward.”

Scott Woodward:
Pray always stood out to me here because as you said, we know something of the outcome of Thomas B. Marsh’s story. And my mind was drawn to Section 112, which is also given to Thomas B. Marsh right on the brink of his apostasy. He hasn’t apostatized yet, but he will within a year of Section 112 being given. This is 1837. And in verse 10, listen to what the Lord says there. He says, “Be thou humble, and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand and give thee answer to thy prayers.” Thomas, pray, pray always, be humble. And back to this revelation, verse 13, he says, “Be faithful unto the end, and lo, I am with you.” The Lord sees his tendencies here, right. The Lord knows where this is going. And the safeguard against Thomas B. Marsh’s apostasy is to pray always, to be humble, to be faithful. He’ll be out of the Church, Casey, for 19 years. When he finally comes back to the Church, comes back to Utah, Brigham Young allows him to stand up in General Conference and give a talk and in the talk, he talks about why he actually left the Church.

Scott Woodward:
And in a moment of great vulnerability and disclosure, he says that he got mad, he got jealous of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and he wanted everybody else to be mad at the prophet, but other people wouldn’t get mad. He certainly didn’t want to pray. He said, I started having all the carnal feelings, all the wrath and envy and anger and jealousy and all those, all the, the feelings that, the kind that are subdued when we pray. I don’t think the Lord tells us to pray always because the Lord just wants to hear all of our prayers. I think the Lord also knows exactly what prayer does to us as we humble ourselves. It helps us to work through feelings of anger, jealousy, envy, wrath, all those things that Thomas B. Marsh said contributed to his apostasy. And so, wise words here in Section 31.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. And it’s interesting that, you know, in Section 112, the same warnings are given to him. Thomas B. Marsh is an amazing leader and a great speaker, but he does have these kind of seeds of destruction planted within his soul at this point in time.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. And they’re not like super unique to Thomas, right. Like I see those in myself. I see them in most people I admire. Like, if we don’t check ourselves, we can wreck ourselves, as a wise man once said. We can put ourselves in situations where we’re vulnerable and we can fall. So I know we’ve talked about prayer in the past, but I’m struck by 3 Nephi 18, where the Lord calls Twelve Disciples. By the way, Thomas B. Marsh goes on to become the President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. That’s why his apostasy was such a blow to the Church. I mean, it’s always a blow when anyone who’s loved and respected leaves, but he was the Quorum of the Twelve President. And I think back in 3 Nephi 18, when the Lord says to the twelve, he says, “Satan desires to have you that he may sift you as wheat.” And what does the Lord say as like the protection for them? He only gives them one piece of advice. He says, “Watch and pray always.” That’s it. Is prayer some magical wand? No. Does prayer help us to be humble, though? Yes. Does prayer help us work through some feelings that if taken to their maturity would cause us to make a, an angry break with Church leaders or, or whatever?

Scott Woodward:
Maybe. Maybe. That’s what happened with Thomas. And so prayer is going to keep a homeostasis, can I say that, in our soul of humility, helps us work through feelings that, if left unchecked, can lead to some disasters. That’s my take on it.

Casey Griffiths:
Any major controversies you see in this section?

Scott Woodward:
No, no controversies.

Casey Griffiths:
Consequences. You already mentioned one of them. Thomas B. Marsh becomes a really great missionary for the Church. And in 1835, he is called as the first president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in this dispensation. Now, when we get there, we’ll talk about how seniority in the Twelve was decided. But Thomas is a gifted missionary, great leader. If everything had stayed according to plan, you know, it would be T-M-U, not B-Y-U, Thomas Marsh University, because he was in that line of succession, but didn’t go according to plan. But still, we should recognize his gifts. Two commentators on the Doctrine and Covenants that I love, Hyrum Smith and Janne Sjödahl, said, “As long as Thomas B. Marsh was faithful, he was an eloquent speaker.” And then they cited one incident. “At the time of the troubles in Clay County, Missouri,” so this is a few years down the road, “he was elected member of a committee to lay the grievances of the Saints before the authorities of the state. On that occasion, he spoke so impressively that General Atchison,” who was one of the Saints’ worst antagonists “who was present, shed tears, and the meeting passed resolutions to assist the Saints in finding a new location.”

Casey Griffiths:
So he’s a very gifted leader, but you can also see those potential problems that are eventually going to cause him to have issues years down the road. Let’s go to Section 32, which is back to the Lamanite Mission, right?

Scott Woodward:
Yes. So drop us in to Section 32.

Casey Griffiths:
The Mission to the Lamanites is a big thing, and a lot of people start to get really, really excited about it. And several new converts express interest in going with Oliver Cowdery on this mission. So momentum is building. And among these anxious volunteers are one name that’s going to be huge in Church history, Parley P. Pratt. The other one is Ziba Peterson. Several years earlier, Parley P. Pratt, before he joined the Church, when he was only 19, actually set out from New York to Ohio with a plan to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ to the American Indians. So Parley connects with the Book of Mormon in a big way.

Scott Woodward:
So before he even joined the Church, Parley is interested in preaching the Bible to American Indians. So this is…

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
A seed planted much earlier than his experience with the Book of Mormon.

Casey Griffiths:
I’m going to fully acknowledge right here, right now, that Parley P. Pratt is one of my favorite people in Church history. So indulge me for a minute here. I just think he’s awesome. He wrote this autobiography that is one of the most colorful books in the early history of the Church, and he just kind of has this dynamic… I call him like the Indiana Jones of early Mormonism because he’s always, you know, jumping off trains or getting chased by dogs or getting thrown in prison. Let me, inject a little bit of this, okay? Now, excuse the insensitive racial language from the time, but when Parley’s 19, and he’s going to go convert the Native Americans to the gospel, he wrote, “I will win the confidence of the red man. I will learn his language. I will tell him of Jesus. I will read to him the scriptures. I will teach him the arts of peace, to hate war, to love his neighbor, to fear and love God, and to cultivate the earth. Such were my resolutions.” So he’s got this, I’m going to change the world, kind of attitude and leaves New York to go to Ohio, heading towards, you know, the place where the Native Americans live.

Casey Griffiths:
Now, his connections are going to be a big part about why the Mission to the Lamanites actually is successful in a kind of unexpected way. During his travels, he becomes familiar with a man named Sidney Rigdon, who’s a minister that’s associated with a Restorationist movement. We’re not the only people trying to restore the ancient church, but this movement is associated with Alexander Campbell. Sidney Rigdon and Alexander Campbell were part of a movement that was trying to bring the Church back to the New Testament to get back to its original purity. And Parley becomes a preacher on behalf of this movement, began to travel and teach others, and often was accompanied by his wife, Thankful Halsey. Now, in the summer of 1830, Parley and Thankful are traveling on a canal boat near Palmyra, when Parley feels a prompting that he’s supposed to get off the boat and travel through the area, and soon after, he meets a Baptist deacon who loans him a copy of the Book of Mormon. So Parley gets the book, and I want to read his own words here of, of how it affects him. This is what he writes, okay. He said, “I opened it with eagerness, and I read its title page.

Casey Griffiths:
“I then read the testimony of several witnesses in relation to the manner of it being found and translated. After this, I commenced its contents by course. I read all day. Eating was a burden. I had no desire for food. Sleep was a burden when the night came, for I preferred reading to sleep. As I read, the spirit of the Lord was upon me, and I knew and comprehended that the book was true, as plainly and manifestly as a man comprehends and knows that he exists. My joy was now full, as it were, and I rejoiced sufficiently to more than pay me for all the sorrows, sacrifices, and toils of my life.” So reads the entire book, doesn’t want to sleep, doesn’t want to eat, just wants to get through the book. He’s so enthusiastic. And then he goes straight to Palmyra to try and find Joseph Smith. When he gets there, instead of Joseph, Hyrum Smith is there. Parley writes, “We conversed much of the night, during which I unfolded to him much of my experience in seeking after the truth.” And Hyrum tells him about how the Book of Mormon was translated and came forth.

Casey Griffiths:
By the time they’re done, Hyrum gives Parley his own copy because, again, he had a loaner up to this point. And then Parley travels to Fayette, New York, where he meets Oliver Cowdery and other Church members, gets baptized and is ordained an elder. Now, a couple of weeks later, Parley meets Joseph Smith, who receives this revelation, Section 32, on behalf of him and Ziba Peterson. Parley is called, his dream comes true. He’s going to be sent on a mission to the Lamanites and finally carry out that thing he wanted to do since he was 19 years old. And he doesn’t have any hesitant. He, he later on writes, “Making arrangements for my wife in the family of the Whitmers, we took leave of our friends in the Church in late October and started out on foot.” So credit these guys. The revelation comes in September. In October, they’re on the road headed towards a place they’ve never been to teach the gospel and to share the Book of Mormon with these Native Americans they see as part of the house of Israel.

Scott Woodward:
So he, as a 19-year-old non-Latter-day Saint kid, Bible believer, wants to go West and teach the Native Americans. And in the midst of that, finds Sidney Rigdon, who teaches him the Disciples’ Movement, the, this reformed Baptist movement. He becomes a reformed Baptist preacher, now more fully armed to preach the gospel to the Native Americans. But then he finds the Book of Mormon. He’s led by the Spirit to get off the boat, finds a Book of Mormon, now joins this Church, and now he’s even more ready. He goes to this conference in September, and he hears there’s Oliver Cowdery and this Peter Whitmer, Jr. guy who are already called to go preach to the Lamanites. He asks, Can I go, too? And Section 32 is the result of that.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, he’s like a, he’s like a wedding crasher, right. He shows up, and he’s like, Hey, can I go? I want to go. This brand new guy who’s just full of vim and vigor and wants to get out and teach the gospel. And that’s, like, characteristic of his entire life. He writes one of the most influential tracks in the history of the Church, A Voice of Warning. He’s one of our brightest theologians. And he just is in and out of the narrative all over the place from here on out. One of the original Twelve Apostles, this is the start of, of everything for him. And he’s going to play a big role in the Mission to the Lamanites becoming the success that it is.

Scott Woodward:
Huge, yeah. Terryl Givens has compared him to the modern-day Paul. Like Paul the Apostle was back in his day, Parley P. Pratt is to the early Latter-day Saint movement. Like that influential, that much travel, that much preaching, that much writing. Like, he’s a prolific writer and teacher and incredibly intelligent. Him and his brother, which we’ll talk about in a minute, are just phenomenal contributions to the early Restoration. So the Lord says to this eager new convert, he says to Parley, “And now concerning my servant Parley P. Pratt, behold, I say unto him that as I live, I will that he shall declare my gospel.” I like that. He’s not just called to preach the gospel. He’s called to preach the gospel as I live, the Lord says. “Learn of me, be meek and lowly of heart,” Parley. He’s got so many gifts and talents, which is so important for all people who have so many gifts and talents. Be meek and lowly of heart. Verse 2, “And that which I have appointed unto him is that he shall go with my servants, Oliver Cowdery and Peter Whitmer, Jr., into the wilderness among the Lamanites.” I could just see him doing a backflip at that point.

Scott Woodward:
“And Ziba Peterson,” this other young man, a recent convert as well, about six months, he “shall also go with them.” We don’t know as much about Ziba as we do about Parley because he’s going to, he’s going to leave the Church soon after this mission. And so he kind of fades off into the pages of history. But the Lord promises them that I myself will go with them and be in their midst, and I am their advocate with the Father, and nothing shall prevail against them. They should give heed to that which is written, pretend to no other revelations. Pray always that I may unfold the same to their understanding. Don’t trifle with these words. Give heed. I’ll bless you. Amen. Short little guy, but the consequences that come from this, Casey, can I just walk through some of the consequences of this section?

Casey Griffiths:
Huge consequences, right? Walk us through them.

Scott Woodward:
Okay, so right after this section is received, Oliver Cowdery, who’s leading this Lamanite Mission, signs a written covenant that he would walk humbly before God on this mission to proclaim the gospel to the Lamanites, and it has a dual purpose, to to scout out the location of the New Jerusalem. Recall back in Section 28 that the Lord said, The New Jerusalem is on the borders by the Lamanites. And so part of his mission is to scout out the location for that. So then Parley, Ziba, and Peter Whitmer, Jr. all sign that covenant that they will assist Oliver Cowdery faithfully in this thing. They then leave from Fayette, New York, on the 17th of October, 1830, to begin what would become a four-month, 1,500-mile journey to beyond the then-western border of the United States. And this, the first group of Lamanites that they, they preach to, though, is actually the Cattaraugus Indians near Buffalo, New York. So they don’t actually go very far before they hit their first group. Then the second group were the Wyandot Indians in Upper Sandusky, Ohio, so we’re still not close to the border of the United States yet. It’s not until January of 1831 that they arrive on the Western frontier of the United States.

Scott Woodward:
Now, keep in mind, they’re mostly walking. Did you note when they left, October, four months, now it’s January. This is North America. It’s snowy. In fact, this particular year has been called the Winter of the Deep Snow. They had traveled a little bit by steamboat from Cincinnati, Ohio to Cairo, Illinois. But on account of the ice built up on the water, they are forced to change plans and make the rest of the journey on foot. So they walk nearly 200 miles to St. Louis. And here’s how Parley explains it. He says, “We traveled on foot for 300 miles through vast prairies and through trackless wilds of snow, no beaten road, houses few and far between, the bleak northwest wind always blowing in our faces with a keenness which would almost take the skin off the face. But after much fatigue and some suffering,” he said, “we all arrived in Independence in the county of Jackson on the extreme Western frontiers of Missouri and the United States.” Once they get to Independence, Peter and Ziba stay there to earn money. And you mentioned Peter becomes a tailor. While Oliver and Parley, together with a recent convert, they picked up named Frederick G. Williams.

Casey Griffiths:
That’s an important name, too.

Scott Woodward:
They all go into… They cross the border of the United States, which was the Missouri Western border, into what is modern-day, what, Kansas. They begin preaching to the Native Americans there. They first preach to the Shawnee tribe, and then to the Delaware tribe. And although the Delaware Indians were pretty receptive to the message, and their chief actually requested the missionaries to return in the spring to tell them more, suddenly there comes an order by a federal agent that expelled the missionaries from Indian territory because, he said they did not have US authorization to proselyte there. They then sought to get authorization to preach from the superintendent of Indian Affairs in the area, but they were denied. This was a major blow. Like, I mean, although Peter and Ziba preached to some Indians on the banks of the Missouri River later that April, the fact that the missionaries were banned from preaching in Indian territory with no prospects of obtaining license to do so effectively brings an abrupt to the Lamanite Mission with the number of Native American converts totaling zero.

Casey Griffiths:
So let me get this straight. The Mission to the Lamanites, the total number of Lamanites converted is zero.

Scott Woodward:
Goose egg.

Casey Griffiths:
As far as we can tell. So, so, I’m setting you up here, Scott, but it might be a question some are tempted to ask, which is, Was the Mission to the Lamanites a total failure? And if we’re going by converted Native Americans, it seems like the answer is, yeah, like, it was a total failure.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, they bombed. Native American converts. Yeah. But, but there’s a big but on this one, isn’t there? Something rather unexpected happened, actually, back in October, in November, in Ohio, in the Mentor/Kirtland area. As the missionaries were journeying to the Western border, Parley suggested that they briefly stop in Mentor, Ohio to visit his old friends in the Reformed Baptist Disciple Church to which he formerly belonged. He thought that many of them would be open to the truth of their message, and in that, he turned out to be spectacularly right. The first home they stopped at was that of Sidney Rigdon, Parley’s old former friend and preacher in the Reformed Baptist Movement, who had so powerfully influenced and inspired Parley with his compelling biblical teachings that Parley felt that he wanted to return the favor now. So he actually gives Sidney a copy of the Book of Mormon, and he told him it was a revelation from God. Sidney was visibly surprised, Parley says, and clearly doubtful. But Sidney said that he would investigate the matter. He said, quote, :I will read your book and I will see what claims it has upon my faith, and will endeavor to ascertain whether it be a revelation from God or not.”

Scott Woodward:
Now, you got to keep in mind, Sidney Rigdon is one of the most biblically literate brains on the planet at this time. Like he has a photographic memory. His son, John Wycliffe Rigdon, said that his dad had the entire history of the world at the tip of his tongue and the entire Bible. He was not just brilliant in terms of, like, his memory and being able to recall anything and everything he ever read, but he was also a super eloquent preacher, and that’s why he had built up such a strong congregation. He actually had like five different congregations in the area. He would go around preaching to and building up churches there. And he is a big deal, you know, suffice it to say.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. He’s a whale, to use the, to use the terms casinos use. Like he’s a big deal. If they can convert him, you know, this is a King Lamoni kind of situation, right?

Scott Woodward:
A hundred percent, yeah. So, so he investigates for about two weeks, and it’s finally going to culminate in a very powerful, convincing spiritual witness of the truth of the work. And now he’s faced with a professional crisis. Does he join this Church? If he does, then he’s to stop being a very successful preacher. And by the way, he’s getting paid pretty well to do that. He turns to his wife, Phebe, and says, Phebe, I want to, I want to join this church. You followed me into poverty once, when… He’s referring back to a time when he was a, a tanner of animal hides. He said, You followed me into poverty once. Are you willing to follow me into poverty again? And Phebe, unbeknownst to Sidney, she had also been investigating what the missionaries had been teaching for the last two weeks. And she said, I’m with you, Sidney. I am as convinced as you are. And so let’s, let’s do it. Let’s join this work. At great sacrifice, Sidney will convert. But in the meantime, these four missionaries were allowed to preach in Sidney’s church. He opened it up to them and invited his congregation to respectfully listen. They also were going around in many homes in Mentor and Kirtland, and Parley reported that “the news of our coming was soon noised abroad, and the news of the discovery of the Book of Mormon and the marvelous events connected with it.

Scott Woodward:
“The interest and excitement now became general in Kirtland and in all the region roundabout. The people thronged us night and day insomuch that we had no time for rest and retirement.” I mean, that’s every missionary’s dream right there, right. He said, “Meetings were convened in different neighborhoods, and multitudes came together soliciting our attendance. And in two or three weeks from our arrival in the neighborhood with the news, we had baptized 127 souls.” By just a couple more months, there’s going to be 300 converts here. Just remember, when we started…

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
This episode today, we said the Church was 62 people big in September of 1830. This is going to more than triple the size of the Church, just this, this mission here.

Casey Griffiths:
In one fell swoop, the Church has more members in Ohio all of a sudden than it has in New York and Pennsylvania. And it’s because of Parley P. Pratt, his connections and Sidney and Phebe Rigdon’s willingness to sacrifice almost everything because they feel like they found the true gospel.

Scott Woodward:
And think of, I mean, they have Oliver Cowdery with them. This is Oliver Cowdery, who’s a witness of the Book of Woman Plates. Oliver Cowdery, who’s been a witness of John the Baptist, Peter, James, and John. When he bore his witness of the Book of Mormon, like, people listened. He’s the magnet. So Parley’s got the social connections. Oliver’s got the undeniable testimony, and Ziba and Peter are there in supporting roles. But those two, I think Oliver and, and Parley, are the, are the powerful dynamic here that is just lighting this place up. And it’s funny. There’s a newspaper that was actually published around this time that reported about this. And I just love this. It’s a Northern Ohio newspaper that said, quote, “Strange as it may appear, it is an unquestionable fact that this singular sect,” speaking of the Church, “have within three or four weeks made many proselytes in this county. The number of believers in the faith in three or four of the northern townships is said to exceed 100, among whom are many intelligent and respectable individuals. The prospects of obtaining still greater numbers in this county is daily increasing.” I love that line. Many of these people who are joining this Church are intelligent and respectable.

Scott Woodward:
These aren’t just the dregs of society joining this Church. This is the pick and flower of society as, as…

Casey Griffiths:
Charles Dickens. You just stole from Charles Dickens. And I was about to quote that, Scott. That’s how in tune we are with each other. It just reminds me of Charles Dickens went down to the Liverpool docks to see these Latter-day Saint converts that were emigrating to America. And he writes, “I expected to find the drags of society. Instead, what I witnessed was the pick and flower of England.” Like, how do these religious fanatics gather people of such intelligence and talent into their midst? And let’s do a quick review of these Kirtland converts, okay. We’ve already talked about Sidney Rigdon. Sidney Rigdon is amazing. He’s got several congregations. You could still go to churches in and around the Mentor, Ohio, area. And up on the wall is Sidney Rigdon, is the founder of their church. I went to a little church down in Mantua, Ohio, and they pulled out Sidney Rigdon’s preaching pulpit. Like, he’s the founder of all these areas. He’s going to become the first counselor in the First Presidency. He’s going to become Joseph Smith’s scribe, mission companion. And that’s just the first person. Frederick G. Williams, who you mentioned already, is the Justice of the Peace in Kirtland. And he’s going to become another counselor.

Casey Griffiths:
He’s great. He’s the one that goes on with the missionaries from Kirtland to Ohio. Newel K. Whitney. The Newel K. Whitney store is still in Ohio. He’s a successful store owner, and he and his wife, Elizabeth, who’s usually referred to as Ann Whitney, Elizabeth Ann Whitney, have been praying for years to receive the Holy Ghost. He’s going to become the second presiding bishop in the Church. There’s Levi Hancock, who’s a local carpenter and cabinet-maker. He’s a distant relative of John Hancock, the signer of the Declaration of Independence. He’s going to become one of the first presidents of the Quorum of the Seventy. You got Zebedee Coltrin, who taught the gospel. He’s taught by Levi Hancock’s brother. He becomes a president of the Quorum of the 70. Isaac Morley, who’s a prominent landowner in Kirtland. He’s going to consecrate his farm and stays with the Church until Utah. Like, he dies the patriarch in Manti, Utah. Lyman White, future apostle, who’s a close friend of Sidney Rigdon and Isaac Morley, he’s going to make it through Liberty Jail. Edward Partridge, who becomes the first bishop of the Church, the presiding bishop, him and his wife, Lydia, are key.

Casey Griffiths:
John Murdock, who is a big figure in the town where my parents came from in Beaver, Utah. Eventually, John’s twins, John’s wife dies, and his twin infants are adopted by Joseph and Emma. That’s a story that gets set up.

Scott Woodward:
John’s amazing. He serves more than nine missions for the Church. He’ll become a bishop, a patriarch, this incredibly consecrated soul.

Casey Griffiths:
Sees Jesus Christ in the School of the Prophets. Like that’s one of the sweetest stories of the Restoration, too, is that he sees a vision of the Savior while he’s in the School of the Prophets. Sidney Gilbert, who’s a store owner, who’s partners with Newel K. Whitney. John Johnson, who is going to invite Joseph Smith to his home. John and Elsa become key converts in the early Restoration. Two of their sons, Luke and Lyman, become apostles. Another, Marinda Johnson, is going to marry Orson Hyde.

Scott Woodward:
Orson Hyde, he’s going to be a big deal, isn’t he?

Casey Griffiths:
Oh, yeah. Orson Hyde, the first… Well, he becomes an apostle, and then he travels all the way to the Holy Land to dedicate Jerusalem for the return of the… There’s still a memorial park to Orson Hyde in Jerusalem.

Scott Woodward:
And then think about just down the street from the Johnsons, their close family friends are called the Snows. They’ve got a daughter named Eliza R. Snow. Now, Eliza is a very gifted poet, hymn writer. She’ll become a plural wife of the Prophet Joseph Smith. She’ll become a General Relief Society President of the Church. She’s got a cousin, Erastus Snow, who becomes one of the most revered apostles of his day. And she’s got a little brother named Lorenzo Snow who becomes the fifth President of the Church. So, Casey, you asked me, was the Lamanite Mission a success? The mission that was spurred on by Sections 28, 30, and 32, was that a success? I mean, if measured by the unanticipated impact of the preaching of these four missionaries to the non-Lamanites in the Kirtland, Ohio area, we might just have to say that this is one of the most successful missions in the history of the Church. Let’s just think about for a second, like, what comes as a result of this, like? Because of this mission, Church membership nearly triples in a matter of weeks. Because of this mission, some of the most influential leaders in the Church’s first generation come into the Church.

Scott Woodward:
Because of this mission, Kirtland is soon going to become the first gathering place for the Lord’s people and will be where they will build the Church’s first temple…

Casey Griffiths:
Right.

Scott Woodward:
Where the sacred keys will be restored that are eventually going to impact billions of mankind on both sides of the veil. The long term impact of the Lamanite Mission on the future of the Church and ultimately upon the world, Casey, I think is pretty difficult to overestimate. I would dare say that most people listening to this podcast today are somehow a result of the Lamanite Mission. I bet somebody taught somebody who taught somebody who taught your ancestors, or somehow you’re here because of that. I played this game once with myself, and I found out that Erastus Snow, who I just mentioned, he’s the one that taught this great little lady named Nancy McCurdy. She was a 17-year-old girl in Michigan. And Nancy McCurdy, her whole family was taught. They rejected it except for her. And she had this boyfriend that was trying to convince her to, you know, choose him over the Church. And she’s like, But I feel so compelled to go to the Church. And they hire, like, a preacher to come and convince her to not join this Church.

Scott Woodward:
But she thanks them all for their kindness and their concern, but she stands up and bears this powerful testimony that the Holy Ghost had borne witness to her soul that this was true and that she needs to become a part of it. And Nancy McCurdy travels to Nauvoo, and there she meets this guy named James Woodward, and the rest is my family history, Casey. Erastus Snow, one of the fruits of the Lamanite Mission here is directly the connection for me. So I don’t know how exactly you trace that, how everyone listening could do that, but what I’m saying is I don’t know how to calculate the impact of the Lamanite Mission. It’s just off the charts.

Casey Griffiths:
I will note this is another one of those stories in the Doctrine and Covenants that I’m mentally keeping track of where the outcome is completely different from what they thought it was going to be. It just seems like so often we have in mind what’s going to happen, and the Lord has different plans. They thought they were going to go and convert the Native Americans by the thousands. That’s a total failure, but the Lord did have in mind exactly what they were going to do. And I mean, evidence one of the success of the Lamanite Mission, Scott Woodward, is right here talking about the Doctrine and Covenants on our podcast. So that enough justifies the whole enterprise to me.

Scott Woodward:
Wow, wow, thank you, Casey. That means a lot. No, but like, and I’ve also thought, like… There’s this great quote from Elder Maxwell. Could you indulge me for a second? It’s about the, the star of Bethlehem, you know, the Christmas star. And Elder Maxwell, classically, is thinking really deeply about this, about how long it must have taken God to, you know, place that star in its orbit and all this stuff. So here’s the quote, and then he compares that to humans. And I think about this quote when I think about the Lamanite Mission sometimes. So indulge me for a second. He said, “The same God that placed that star in a precise orbit, millennia before it appeared over Bethlehem in celebration of the birth of the babe, has given at least equal attention to placement of each of us in precise human orbits so that we may, if we will, illuminate the landscape of our individual lives so that our light may not only lead others, but warm them as well.” He talks about how the same God that pays attention to astrophysical orbits, pays at least as much attention to human orbits as well. I’ve thought about, like, how was there such a high concentration of people in the Kirtland area at this time ready to receive the message?

Scott Woodward:
These are going to be the people on whose backs the Restoration is going to be built. Like, to have that many ready people of that high caliber, “many intelligent and respectable individuals” all collected in this one area is, to me, beyond coincidence. What’s amazing about people, we’re very different than stars in one way. Stars don’t have agency. Stars don’t have choice. With people, God is giving little promptings, little revelations, little, little nudges. Like Parley P. Pratt, you just mentioned it in passing. As you read it, I just smiled to myself. He told his wife that he had a little prompting to get off a boat when they’re on the Erie Canal heading back to Canaan, just a little prompting, Get off the boat, Parley. And he gets off the boat, and that’s when he meets that Baptist deacon who gives him a copy of the Book of Mormon. And the rest is everything we just talked about, like. Just these little nudges, right? What happens if Parley P. Pratt doesn’t get off the boat? I’m sure God would figure out a way, as we’ve seen with the loss of the 116 pages. There’s backup plans to backup plans. But to see how the Lord works with us, I love this concept of human orbits, and I just see it at play in this episode of the Lamanite Mission.

Scott Woodward:
So many moving parts that had to come together, and they just came together so well.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. Maybe Scott Woodward being part of the Church is controversial today.

Scott Woodward:
That one’s hard to resolve.

Casey Griffiths:
I’m good with it, you know. The Church is still true. So huge consequences, right?

Scott Woodward:
Major.

Casey Griffiths:
Of the Lamanite Mission. And two of the sections we’ve yet to deal with are part of those consequences, too. So we’ll come back to the Lamanite Mission in a minute, but let’s go to the next section of the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 33. Section 33 is sort of like a little deviation from the main storyline, which is the Lamanite Mission. But it introduces us to two interesting figures, Ezra Thayre and Northrop Sweet, who are both converts baptized in October 1830. They join the Church. Later on, Ezra is going to write a thing about how he joined the Church. And this is kind of one of those quirky, weird stories from Church history, so.

Scott Woodward:
Weren’t both of them baptized by Parley P. Pratt?

Casey Griffiths:
They’re both baptized by Parley P. Pratt in October 1830, and then this revelation is given to them. So this is another one of those. Here’s a new convert. The clothes are still wet on his back from being baptized. What’s the Lord’s will for them? Okay, so Ezra, later on, this is in 1862, so decades later, says that he saw a vision. This is the way he describes it. He said, “A man came and brought me a roll of paper and presented it to me, and also a trumpet and told me to blow it. I told him that I’d never blowed anything in my whole life. He said, You can blow it. Try it. I put it in my mouth and I blowed on it, and it made the most beautiful sound that I ever heard. The roll of paper was the revelation on me and Northrop Sweet.” So he saw in vision the paper that this revelation was written on, and Ezra later says that the man he saw in his vision was Oliver Cowdery. Again, one of those quirky stories that doesn’t get told a lot in the early history of the Church. Ezra Thayre and Northrop Sweet both get baptized in October 1830.

Casey Griffiths:
Ezra is so enthusiastic about his new faith that he gets together a large group of people to hear Joseph Smith speak. And he later recorded that he held a meeting that filled up his barn “so much so that some could not get in, and that,” listen to this lineup, “Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, Peter Whitmer, Jr., Parley P. Pratt, and Ziba Peterson all preached the gospel with great power,” Ezra says. However, they both have interesting stories here. Northrop Sweet, who’s mentioned in the revelation, only stays in the Church for about a year. He does move with other Church members to Ohio when the command to gather is given. He’s ordained an elder in June 1831, but he leaves the Church shortly after. Northrop Sweet holds a unique distinction, Scott. He is the first person we know of to form a break-off church. That’s about all we know about him, was that he founded a sect called the Pure Church of Christ, but it doesn’t last very long. But he is the first person to form a schism that’s linked back to the Church.

Scott Woodward:
So Northrop Sweet would be one of those whose faith springs up quickly, but then the sun comes and scorches it for back to your Matthew 13 framing.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, and unfortunately, his new movement doesn’t last very long, and we don’t know very much about it, but it is the first, you know, schism of what will be several hundred.

Scott Woodward:
These two gentlemen are also invited to preach the gospel. They are invited to lift up their voices with the sound of a trump and declare the gospel. The Lord in this revelation, I think he actually says a few key, kind of unique statements to them that, that frame our dispensation or our time period that the gospel is being preached in an interesting way. The Lord refers to this season in verse 3 as “the eleventh hour,” which is a reference to the parable of the laborers in Matthew 20, verses 1 through 16. During the time in which the Savior lived, remember that the first hour of the day was designated at sunrise, so at six o’clock in the morning. And the eleventh hour was 5:00 PM, right near the end of the work day. In the Parable of the Laborers, remember that the Lord of the Vineyard, who represents the Savior, he finds a group of laborers. Some of them are idle, even up to the eleventh hour. He recruits them to work in the vineyard, and then he pays them all the same amount, right. They all get that, what is it, penny a day or something like that.

Scott Woodward:
But by referencing this parable, it’s kind of interesting that the Lord communicates to these two disciples like the urgency that needs to accompany the work of the Lord in the last day. It’s like, only a few years after this revelation, the Church begins to be called the Church of the Latter-day Saints before it receives its official name as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. But this idea of that we’re in the last time, we’re in the final hour of the work day, right, the last hour to harvest the field. This is the final gathering. This is the climax of the gathering before the Second Coming of Jesus. You’ve been called at a really crucial time to come and, and labor in the vineyard in preparation for that great and last day. And so just great imagery here. Just good New Testament imagery here. In fact, there’s another one, he says at the end here. He says, “Wherefore,” verse 17, “be faithful, praying always, having your lamps trimmed and burning and oil with you, that you may be ready at the coming of the bridegroom. For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you that I come quickly. Even so. Amen.”

Scott Woodward:
Another great reference to another great parable about the same thing, about the Second Coming. It is nigh at hand. So be ready. Have your lamps trimmed and burning with oil because you know not the hour when the Lord comes, but we know he comes quickly. That’s not a thorough treatment of Section 33. I invite you to go and read word for word, but a few highlights there. Anything that I skipped over really quickly there, Casey, that you want to make sure we highlight?

Casey Griffiths:
Oh, as a missionary, these passages of 8, 9, and 10 always resonated with me. “Open your mouths and they shall be filled, and you shall become even as Nephi of old.” Verse 9, “Open your mouths and spare not, and you shall be laden with sheaves upon your backs.” Verse 10, “Open your mouths and they shall be filled, saying, Repent, repent, and prepare you the way of the Lord and make his path straight.” There is power just in us sharing, you know. Like the Lord says, Just open your mouth. The words will come. You’ll know exactly what to say. Ezra Booth, later on, does talk about how this affected him. He was touched when Hyrum Smith shared his testimony. He said, “Every word touched me to the inmost soul. I thought every word was pointed to me. The tears rolled down my cheeks. I was very proud and stubborn. There were many who knew me. I sat until I recovered before I dared look up.” And then Hyrum hands him a copy of the Book of Mormon, and he said, “I then opened the book and received a shock with such exquisite joy that no pen can write and no tongue can express.”

Casey Griffiths:
He purchases the book. It was 14 shillings. He said, “I opened it again and I felt a double portion of the Spirit that I did not know whether I was in the world or not. I felt as though I was truly in heaven.” Martin Harris came up and wanted to share his testimony about the book, Ezra stopped him and said, “He did not tell me that, for I knew that it was true as well as he.” So he gains this witness of the Book of Mormon. We’ve already mentioned, Northrop Sweet takes off relatively early. Ezra Thayre sticks around for about a decade in the Church. He does eventually leave the Church, which there’s later revelations where he fails to fill a mission. He’s commanded to go on with Thomas B. Marsh. But he does eventually serve on the high council at Adam-ondi-Ahman. He’s part of the Council of Fifty, which is an advisory group for Joseph Smith’s presidential campaign. But after the death of Joseph Smith, he doesn’t follow the twelve. He ends up with James Strang. He eventually joins the Reorganized Church. But it doesn’t seem like he’s super active in that either.

Casey Griffiths:
He goes back to Rochester, New York. And in 1860, Jonathan Crosby, a, a missionary who stops to see Ezra Thayre, records Ezra was there, he was living. But Jonathan Crosby wrote, “He treated us well, but he was dead spiritually.” So this is one of those ones that makes it a while, but eventually does collapse in his faith. His faith withers and dies.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, that’s interesting to think about these lofty words the Lord is saying to them. These, these really keen words, great promises, which they do experience for a short time, was not enough to sustain them. Which of the four soils in the Parable of the Sower would you say these are? Is this the, the stony ground where it shoots up quickly and then the sun shrivels it? Or is this the thorny seeds where they get choked out by the cares of the world? What would you say?

Casey Griffiths:
The seed among thorns, because he does spend, like, a considerable amount of time in the Church in a number of important positions, but eventually he just doesn’t quite make it. Spiritually dead is what Jonathan Crosby described him as. That’s tough because he seems like he had a genuine fire.

Scott Woodward:
This is a name that’s going to be well known in the Church for many years to come. Ezra Thayre, Northrop Sweet, they’ve kind of fallen off. We don’t really talk about them much. But who’s Section 34 to, Casey?

Casey Griffiths:
This is another one of the Pratts. This is Parley’s little brother Orson, who, it’s just tough to estimate how important Orson Pratt is to the early Restoration. So here’s the story. After he converts to the Church, Parley is really anxious to share the gospel with his own family. So in September 1830, this is before he sets out, like Parley Pratt has a lot of energy, man. He travels to his hometown of Canaan, New York, and preaches to large crowds nearly every day. This is the way Parley later writes it. He says, “The people who had known me from a child seemed astonished, knowing that I had had but little opportunity of acquiring knowledge by study. And while many were interested in truth, some began to be filled with envy and with a lying, persecuting spirit.” He later writes, “My father, mother, and my aunt, Van Cott, and many others began to believe the truth in part, but my brother Orson, a youth of 19 years, received it with all his heart and was baptized at that time and has ever since spent his days in the ministry.” And one great thing we have is because Orson becomes a really influential figure in the Church, he becomes an apostle.

Casey Griffiths:
He writes a little bit about his own backstory. He later records, “For about one year before I heard of this Church, I had begun seriously in my own mind to inquire after the Lord. I took the privilege, while others had retired to rest, to go out into the fields and wilderness, and there, plead with the Lord hour after hour that he would show me what to do, that he would teach me the way of life and inform and instruct my understanding.” And Orson later says, “When I heard the restored gospel, I rejoiced with great joy, believing the ancient principles of the gospel were restored to the earth. The authority to preach it was also restored. I rejoiced that my ears were saluted with these good tidings while I was yet a youth, and in the day, too, of the early rising of the Kingdom of God. I went forward and was baptized. I was the only individual baptized in that country for many years afterwards.” Boy, this is a figure who, like his brother, seems like the Pratt brothers are key in the Restoration. They’re sort of the heart and soul of the early Quorum of the 12 Apostles.

Scott Woodward:
They seem to shape the theological understanding of Latter-day Saints. It’s like the revelations of Joseph Smith came non-systematically, right. They’re coming in response to various external circumstances, questions, Bible translation. There’s kind of this, there’s not a rime or a reason, particularly to the revelations of Joseph. They’re not a systematic theology. So then we get Parley and Orson. They come on, these incredible brothers with incredible intellect, and they systematize it into understandable, comprehensible, like a system of theology, like helping us understand the system of salvation. Like, these two brothers have had a very outsized impact on how we actually understand the revelations of Joseph Smith and how we situate with them in the broader history of the world, in the context of apostasy and all that stuff. They do a lot of that heavy lifting for us. A lot of things we tend to take for granted and how we talk about and understand the gospel is initially laid out by these two brothers in large measure. We’ve mentioned several times that Orson Pratt is singularly responsible for popularizing Joseph Smith’s First Vision experience. He writes the very first account of it, second-hand account that is meant to be published. I should qualify it there.

Scott Woodward:
Writes a pamphlet that he wants to use on his mission that he learned from Joseph Smith. And then Joseph Smith is going to pay him the high compliment of quoting Orson Pratt’s version of his own First Vision in Joseph’s 1842 account of this. It’s so influential. The 13 Articles of Faith is a good example of that. We think that originated with Joseph Smith. That’s not quite right. Yes, that came from the Wentworth Letter that Joseph wrote. But Joseph is actually summarizing and synthesizing Orson Pratt, who had gone through, again, the, the entirety of the corpus of the revelation to Joseph and trying to communicate the beliefs of Latter-day Saints to fellow Christians, wrote out 13, I think he actually did 14 Articles of Faith. And Joseph is summarizing Orson Pratt’s great work. How do you measure the impact of these two? I don’t know, but their contributions are immense. And he’s 19.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
He’s 19 right here when he gets this Section 34. He didn’t know about all of his, all of the future contributions that would come to him, but we see that he was a seeker early on in his life, and we see how that plays out.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, later on, he’s going to be this mighty apostle. But when this revelation is given, he’s young, he’s timid. One weird little historical quirk, according to a second-hand account, this might be the last revelation that’s tied directly to, like, a divine instrument.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah.

Casey Griffiths:
Like a lot of the early revelations were received via the Urim and Thummim, which we assume means the Nephite interpreters. An acquaintance of Orson Pratt, who said he told them the story of how this revelation was received, said that Orson actually traveled to the Peter Whitmer home where Joseph was staying and asked Joseph for a revelation, at which point, Joseph Smith produced, this is the way they read, “a small stone called the seer Stone, putting into a hat, commenced speaking, and asked Elder Pratt to write as he would speak.” So Joseph asks Orson to be the scribe. But being too young and timid and feeling his unworthiness, he asked whether Brother John Whitmer could write it. The prophet said that he could, then came the revelation. So Orson is so intimidated by Joseph Smith, he doesn’t even want to be the scribe. He just wants to see the process work. And that’s how this revelation comes into being.

Casey Griffiths:
But some great counsel in here for Orson Pratt.

Scott Woodward:
Like everybody else who is asking for a revelation during this time, Orson Pratt is called on a mission. He is called to preach the gospel. The Lord drops a couple of little nuggets in here, kind of theological nuggets that, I don’t know, again, maybe this is the Lord just knowing the mind of this young, humble, marvelous, intellectual 19-year-old kid. But he drops a couple of theological nuggets that are just precious. He says, for instance, this is how it starts out, “My son Orson, hearken here and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ, your Redeemer.” Why is Jesus Christ calling Orson his son? Isn’t Jesus our brother? Well, verse 3, he says, “Who so loved the world that he gave his own life, that as many as would believe might become the sons of God. Wherefore, you are my son.” He’s explaining why theologically, you, Orson, who have just been baptized, are my son. Latter-day Saints believe, and we wholeheartedly accept the doctrine that we are spirit children of heavenly parents. We believe that. We believe, was it Acts 17, that we are the offspring of God. There is a sense in which we are unqualified, like, children of God.

Scott Woodward:
Like there’s no qualifications, no stipulations, right. It just, it just is. We just are children of God. But there’s another sense in the New Testament, in the Book of Mormon. We see it right here in the Doctrine and Covenants, several sections actually in this space in which the Lord says that there’s another way where we need to become the children of God. There’s a sense in which we need to become more fully the children of God, and that’s becoming the children of Jesus Christ. Like the apostle John will say in John 1:12, “As many as received Jesus, to them gave he power to become the sons of God.” Book of Mormon, remember Alma the Younger. He says, “All mankind must be born again, men and women, and become his sons and daughters.” You become the sons and daughters of God. This is Mosiah 27:25. King Benjamin talked about being begotten the children of Christ, his sons and his daughters. He said, Today, in Mosiah 5:7, Today, “this day hath he spiritually begotten you.” This is kind of like what the Lord said to Emma Smith back in Section 25:1, where he said to her, “All those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters in my kingdom.”

Scott Woodward:
And I’ve noticed that kind of in our broader LDS cultural speak, like, this is kind of uncomfortable for us. We don’t know quite how to talk about becoming the children of God, so we kind of lean over just kind of default to the, We are the children of God, automatically.

Casey Griffiths:
Right.

Scott Woodward:
But I’ve noticed President Nelson efforts recently. Like he talked to a group of young adults a couple of years ago, and he said there are three identities that matter deeply. “First, I am a child of God. I’m the son of God. Then, a son of the covenant. Then, a disciple of Jesus Christ.” That middle one, there it is, the child of the covenant. You are someone who has been born again into the Kingdom of God and therefore are a son or daughter of Christ. That’s child of the covenant. President Nelson says that’s one of our three most important identities. And we see the Lord just emphasizing that here, which is awesome with Orson.

Casey Griffiths:
It sometimes confuses people because we emphasize so much that we’re children of God. I’m a child of God, and he has sent me here. But the doctrine and covenants and the Book of Mormon, this isn’t new stuff, really introduce this idea that you are a child of God. Everybody is. But the challenge in this life is to become a child of Christ, which President Nielsen expressed by saying, You’re a child of the covenant, and you’re a disciple of Christ together. So we become the sons and daughters of Christ in the sense that we can grow up and become like him. It’s a symbolic and less literal relationship than the relationship we have to our Heavenly Parents. But nonetheless, it’s that covenantal relationship that unlocks exaltation for us. Everybody, every person has a divine right as a child of God, but only those that make and keep sacred covenants with Christ become like God. That’s the basic teaching here. And again, not just here. This is all over the Bible. This is in the Book of Mormon. It’s pretty consistent.

Scott Woodward:
This is what Paul calls becoming “heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ,” right. You become an heir of the Kingdom of God through covenant with Christ. “You become in Christ,” Paul will say in Galatians 3, through baptism. You’re putting on Christ, or the Book of Mormon phrase is “taking upon yourself the name of Christ,” which is the most family way of saying it, right. Like when my children were born into my family, they took upon themselves the name of Woodward. Because they’re my family, I’m their father. And so when we take upon ourselves the name of Jesus, when do we do that? We do that at baptism in a significant way. We grow into it, to and through the temple. But it’s this idea of we’re now part of his family as we take upon ourselves the name of Jesus, we are his. He has claimed us. Therefore, his atoning blood now fully applies to us, right. And as we continue to repent and stay in Jesus, stay in his family consistently, regularly, we are part of that group that will be saved. We’re part of the group that he can claim from the captivity and power of the devil, not just from death, but from the devil’s claim upon our souls in eternity.

Scott Woodward:
And so this is a lot of rich, beautiful theology coming together here, which is, you know, like you said, heavily Book of Mormon, heavily New Testament, and now we’re seeing it…

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
Starting to crop up in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Casey Griffiths:
Just a little passage that has so much meaning and power.

Scott Woodward:
I dare you, everyone listening out there, I dare you to teach this more openly and freely. President Joseph F. Smith went so far as to say, let me quote him, he said, “The object of our earthly existence is that we may become the sons and daughters of God in the fullest sense of the word, being heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, to be kings and priests unto God. This is the object of our being on this earth.” It’s front and center. Like, this is bullseye. This is why we’re here. Everyone listening out there, I dare you to teach this doctrine more clearly, more nuanced, that we are on the path to becoming the children of God in the fullest sense. Yes, we’re the children of God in the Family Proclamation sense that we’re spirit sons and daughters of Heavenly Parents. That’s true. But there’s another sense that we need to aspire to and that is happening for us when we’re getting baptized. Why not teach this at baptisms? Next time you’re called to give a talk at a baptism, why not teach this doctrine that you are now becoming the children of Christ?

Scott Woodward:
You’re taking upon yourself his name. It’s beautiful. It’s all over the scriptures. You’re on very safe ground. I love how verse 4 says, “Blessed are you, Orson, because you have believed.” And then verse 5, “And more blessed are you because you’re called of me to preach my gospel.” There’s something to the blessedness of believing, and then there’s something to a higher blessedness, if you will, of being invited to help others believe. Now you’re spreading and sharing this beautiful gift. And so he, too, is invited to lift up his voice, cry repentance, invite people to prepare for the day of the Second Coming of Christ.

Casey Griffiths:
Orson Pratt is told to preach the gospel both long and loud, which he does. I mean…

Scott Woodward:
He does.

Casey Griffiths:
This guy is called as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. This is part of the consequences of this section. He becomes one of the chief defenders of the Church, you mentioned that he’s the first person to publish the First Vision in 1840. He does have some rocky paths with plural marriage. He’s briefly excommunicated and rebaptized. His headstone in the Salt Lake Cemetery, which I visited, has an inscription on it that reads, “My body sleeps for a moment, but my testimony lives and shall endure forever.” One unique thing about Orson Pratt is that as an apostle, he actually preaches a sermon in 1875, this is just a couple of years before his passing, where he reflects on this revelation. And I just want to read what he wrote in reflection. “I’ve often reflected upon this revelation and have oftentimes inquired in my heart, have I fulfilled that commandment as I ought to have done? Have I sought as earnestly as I ought to obtain the gift of prophecy and to fulfill the requirement of heaven? And I have felt sometimes to condemn myself because of my slothfulness and because of the little progress I’ve made in relation to this great heavenly and divine gift.

Casey Griffiths:
“But still, notwithstanding all this, there is one thing that I have endeavored to do, and that is to inform my mind as far as I could by reading what God has revealed to both ancient and modern prophets in relation to the future. And if I have not had many important prophecies and revelations given directly to myself, I certainly have derived great advantage and great edification from reading and studying that which God has revealed to others. And hence, most of my prophesying throughout my life so far has been founded upon the revelations given to others.” Just a wonderful guy who realized he was in the scriptures and, you know, intended great things, but realized, oh, well, you know what? The prophecies maybe that I was supposed to read were given to other people, and my job was to immerse myself in them and become familiar with them. I think it’s just kind of cool. You don’t see very many people in scripture that get to, later on in their life, comment on their story as it’s placed in the scriptures.

Scott Woodward:
And him being so deeply entrenched in scripture and so thoughtful about our doctrine could lead to maybe the controversy of this section. It’s not necessarily the section itself, but it’s kind of what becomes of this man when he is pitted against Brigham Young often. Maybe we can just make a brief comment on the controversy here, which is they did not always see eye to eye. They are amicable, for sure they’re friends, but Orson had no problem disagreeing with Brigham Young. And oftentimes, his case against the teachings of Brigham Young were they’re not scriptural. I mean, some of the most controversial things Brigham Young ever taught, like Adam was God, our Father, or that black Africans should be enslaved, or that, you know… We don’t have to dig up all the controversies right now, Casey, but we’ve gone into them in great detail in other episodes. But it’s because Brigham Young was off base scripturally in Orson Pratt’s eyes. He would call it out, but then other people would dog on, on Orson Pratt for disagreeing with Brigham Young because he was the presiding apostle, and so Orson, you know, should know his off base, and he had a hard time with all of that. But through it all, I see him as sincere, I see him as humble, just wanting to get it right and not being afraid to disagree with anyone he thought was off base, even if that person happens to be the President of the Church.

Scott Woodward:
But it wasn’t a defiance. I don’t get that sense. Maybe there was some pride involved, but he seems, in my reading of him, to be consistently focused on what’s actually true. And he just has one of those minds that just can’t let go of like, But what’s actually true here? It doesn’t matter whose opinions are involved. Like what’s actually the case? And his bedrock, he would always go back to, are the revelations of the prophets, especially those that have been canonized in scripture. If you want to go down that rabbit hole, there’s a great book called Conflict in the Quorum. You can go dig into all of the tensions between Orson and Brigham Young. What else would you say about that?

Casey Griffiths:
Just that he took it upon himself to kind of act as, I guess, he would push back against Brigham Young. And the more I’ve read about Orson Pratt, the more I’ve come to really admire him, that he was courageous and, but also very humble. He was up in seniority in the Quorum, and then Brigham Young said, We’re going to reorganize the Quorum based on continuous service. So if you were ever excommunicated or left the Church, which both he and Orson Hyde had been, they were moved back to the bottom of the Quorum in seniority, which meant he’d never become the President of the Church. But as far as I can see, Orson never complained about that. He never said anything publicly to dispute it. He just accepted it and continued to serve in his place until he passed away.

Scott Woodward:
Incredible man.

Casey Griffiths:
We already shared a big part of the backstory, which is that this is the part of the consequences of the Mission to the Lamanites. It’s not very successful when it comes to converting Lamanites, but when it comes to bringing new converts into the Church, it’s fabulously successful. Probably the most prominent convert is this person that this revelation is received to, Sidney Rigdon. Sidney basically agrees to read the Book of Mormon at first to disprove it. He wants to protect his congregations, but he becomes so enmeshed in it. His son Wycliffe Rigdon later says, “His father was so engaged in reading the book that was hard for him to quit long enough to eat his meals. He read it both day and night.” And while he’s reading it, he’s in conversation with Oliver Cowdery. Oliver Cowdery is the missionary there. Oliver tells Sidney that Joseph Smith was only 22 years old during most of the translation and had hardly a common school education. Sidney replies to Oliver, If that was all the education he had, he never wrote the book. But he later goes on to express, quote, “His utmost amazement that such a man should write a book which seemed to shed a flood of light on all the old scriptures, open all their profoundest mysteries, and give them perfect consistency and complete system adding, If God ever gave a revelation, surely this must be divine.”

Casey Griffiths:
Shortly after he talks to Oliver Cowdery, Sidney actually has a vision, and this is the way he describes it later on. He said, “I saw the different orders of professing Christians passing before my eyes with their hearts exposed to view, and they were as corrupt as corruption itself. That society to which I belonged, the Reformed Baptists, also passed before my eyes, and to my astonishment, it was as corrupt as the others. Last of all, that little man who brought me the Book of Book of Mormon,” probably a reference to Oliver Cowdery here, “passed before my eyes with his heart open, and it was pure as an angel. And this was a testimony from God that the Book of Mormon was divine revelation.”

Scott Woodward:
So why do you think he was talking about Oliver Cowdery? Because didn’t Parley B. Pratt give him the Book of Mormon?

Casey Griffiths:
He said that he had all this conversation with Oliver Cowdery about the book. So Parley was Sidney’s acquaintance, but Oliver was a primary source. like, he’s the scribe for the Book of Mormon. And it seems like Sidney was really intent in getting as close to the original story as he could. In fact, that’s going to affect why this section comes to be. So Sidney is convinced by November 1830, he calls together a large group of his friends and neighbors to the Methodist Church in Kirtland. Parley P. Pratt said that Sidney “addressed them very affectionately for nearly two hours, during which most of the time, both himself and nearly all the congregation were melted into tears. He asked forgiveness of everybody who might have had occasion to be offended with any part of his former life. He forgave all who had persecuted or injured him in any manner. And the next morning, himself and his wife were baptized by Elder O. Cowdery. Most of the people were greatly affected. They came out of the water overwhelmed in tears.” After Sidney joins the Church, he decides that he wants to meet Joseph Smith. So he travels to New York, and he brings his friend Edward Partridge with them.

Casey Griffiths:
Both were determined that they were going to make it to New York, that they were going to meet Joseph Smith. Sidney has been baptized, but Edward Partridge hasn’t been baptized at this point. John Whitmer says, “Sidney, having much anxiety to see Joseph Smith, Jr. the Seer, took his journey to the state of New York.” And after they get to New York, they shortly after arrive at the home of Joseph Smith, near Fayette, New York. And that’s when this revelation is received on behalf of Sidney Rigdon, and shortly after, Section 36, received on behalf of Edward Partridge.

Scott Woodward:
I want to highlight that in this section, the Lord gives Sidney Rigdon five assignments. The first one, let’s look over here in verse 4. The Lord tells Sidney, and keep in mind that they just met, Joseph and Sidney just met, and it’s, I think, less than 24 hours when this revelation is received. You see a great deal of knowledge that the Lord has about Sidney. Obviously, I think Joseph picked up on some of his significant talents, but it’s just beautiful how intimately the Lord talks to Sidney here. “Thou art blessed, for thou shalt do great things. Behold, thou was sent forth even as John,” meaning John the Baptist, “to prepare the way before me and before Elijah, which should come, and thou knewest it not.” That’s interesting, right. Prepare the way before me and Elijah. Just like John the Baptist had been sent to prepare people to receive Christ, the Lord is saying that Sidney Rigdon was preparing great numbers of people in Kirtland to receive Christ’s church, right, even before he was baptized himself. And the Lord says, And you knew it not. I’ve been working with you. You didn’t even know this. Sidney’s followers accepted Christ because of the way he prepared them.

Scott Woodward:
Think about the first one we talked about was Parley P. Pratt. He was so open to the message of the Restoration because he was such a careful student of Sidney Rigdon’s. That’s a big deal. The second assignment Sidney gets is super interesting. Let’s jump over to verse 17 through 19 here. The Lord is talking to Sidney about the weaknesses of Joseph Smith, and then he gives him a very important assignment that is unique in the entire Restoration. In verse 17, he says, “I have sent forth the fullness of my gospel by the hand of my servant Joseph, and in weakness have I blessed him.” Sidney, no doubt, recognized the weakness of Joseph Smith, right, and the Lord is now commenting on that. “And I have given unto him,” verse 18, “the keys of the mystery of those things which have been sealed, even things which were hid from the foundation of the world, and the things which shall come from this time until the time of my coming.” Then he says this, “If he abide in me,” then I will continue to reveal mysteries to him. “If not, another will I plant in his stead.” The Lord is just really matter-of-fact here that Joseph could fall.

Scott Woodward:
And if he falls, I’ll plant another in his stead. And so here’s the assignment. Look at verse 19. His assignment number 2, “Wherefore, watch over him,” Sidney, watch over Joseph, “that his faith fail not, and it shall be given by the Comforter, the Holy Ghost, that knoweth all things.” He is given the assignment to watch over Joseph Smith and to strengthen Joseph Smith’s faith. That’s incredible.

Casey Griffiths:
I love this idea of him being kind of a John the Baptist. A question that comes up a lot, Scott, is this idea that only our Church receives inspiration and promptings. The Lord is saying to Sidney, who’s a Reformed Baptist minister, No, I’ve been guiding you. I’ve been helping you. I’ve been leading you down this path to where you’re supposed to be, which is a direct refutation of the idea that God only works with Latter-day Saints. God works with all kinds of people under all kinds of circumstances and inspires people in a number of different places. Like, there’s this great quote by the First Presidency that they issued in 1978, where they say, “The great religious leaders of the world, such as Muhammad, Confucius, and the reformers, as well as philosophers, including Socrates, Plato, and others, received a portion of God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and bring a higher level of understanding to individuals. The Hebrew prophets prepared the way for the coming of Jesus Christ, the promised Messiah, who should provide salvation to all mankind who believe in the gospel. Consistent with these truths, we believe that God has given and will give to all peoples sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation, either in this life or in the life to come.”

Casey Griffiths:
And so taking that statement from the First Presidency, Sidney Rigdon fits in that category where the Lord was guiding him, helping him, and assisting him. It’s just further proof that the Lord works among all peoples, even if Latter-day Saints have a special commission. He’s working with everybody and bringing everybody to exactly where they need to be to accomplish his ends and aims.

Scott Woodward:
I like that a lot. This is a great section to show that, and how he says the end of verse 4, “And thou knewest it not.” You didn’t know that I was working with you for this end, Sidney, but I was. By the way, I should say to back on that second assignment that he should watch over Joseph, that his faith fail not. It’s important to note that Sidney was much more experienced than Joseph. He had no fear of, like, experienced and combative ministers or others who may have tried to intimidate or publicly humiliate Joseph’s confidence. Sidney was the ideal companion. Joseph’s confidence and faith grew steadily through Sidney Rigdon’s companionship. And again, seldom has the Lord ever given anyone a responsibility to watch over the prophet, but that tells you the Lord’s view of Sidney. His third assignment is in verse 20. Next verse. “And a commandment I give unto thee that thou shalt write for him,” write for Joseph, “and the scriptures shall be given, even as they are in my own bosom to the salvation of my own elect.” What the Lord does here is make Sidney Rigdon, the scribe, particularly for the Bible translation.

Scott Woodward:
Now, think about how advantageous it would now be for Joseph to have as his scribe someone who’s got the entire Bible memorized essentially. He is now scribing. And so Joseph it’s, is not going to be pure dictation. Sometimes Joseph says, We’ll read a passage, and then we’ll kind of marvel and wonder together about it. And it’s in the midst of that marveling and wondering. I’m thinking, for instance, Section 76 comes this way. As we’re thinking about a passage of scripture and kind of talking about it, that the heavens are opened, the eyes of our understanding now can see the true meaning of the passage and the implications of it and that kind of thing. What a companion there. So that’s number three, Write for Joseph and the scripture shall be given thee. Sidney Rigdon is going to become the scribe for the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. Fourth assignment, verse 22. “Now I say unto you, tarry with him,” with Joseph Smith, “and he shall journey with you. Forsake him not, and surely these things shall be fulfilled.” The Lord just connects Joseph and Sidney at the hip right here. They will be mission companions. They’ll serve a couple of missions together, short little missions, a couple of weeks, or go out and preach.

Scott Woodward:
Oftentimes, Sidney Rigdon would get up and preach, and Joseph will bear testimony, or often the reverse, Joseph would bear witness of what God had done through him. He’d maybe take 10, 20 minutes. Then Sidney Rigdon would get up and prove from the Bible that what Joseph had just said is true. And he’d speak for like an hour or two hours. And it was an electric combination of Sidney’s biblical knowledge and Joseph’s inspiration and testimony that some early converts said that it was electric to hear them tag team. It was lightning and thunder, you know, working together. Although sometimes Sidney could wax a little long. Maybe he’ll go off the path a little bit. There’s one account where someone says, We were listening to Sidney speak first, and he spoke for about an hour and a half, and it was good. Sidney is good to listen to. But then Joseph stood up, and in just about 10 minutes, he began like this. He said, If nobody else is courageous enough to bear testimony of the great things that God is currently doing now in this Church, I will. Then he bears testimony of the ministering of angels to him about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

Scott Woodward:
And by the time he’s done, again, 10 to 12 minutes is all. The whole congregation was electrified, and many people requested baptism. They’re good for each other, Sidney and Joseph. Number 5 and final is verse 23. “And inasmuch as you do not write, behold, it shall be given unto him,” Joseph, “to prophesy, and thou shalt preach my gospel and call on the holy prophets to prove his words as they shall be given him.” Now that goes hand in hand with what I just talked about, that he would prove the words that Joseph Smith had received by revelation were true by appealing to the holy prophets. That’s the Bible. And so they become powerful mission companions there. So verse 4 connects them together as companions. Verse 5 gives him his assignment to back up Joseph Smith’s words with scripture. What an incredible mission call. Casey, Section 35 is. This is not typical. There’s no other revelation quite like Section 35 in the Doctrine and Covenants. Nobody is given these kinds of important assignments quite the same. So the Lord honors Sidney Rigdon’s preparation and gives him assignments to match the gifts and talents he’s got. We talk about Sidney Rigdon eventually falling away.

Scott Woodward:
We talk about the head trauma of 1832, and he’s nearly killed by a mob in Hiram, Ohio. We talk about his delirium. We talk about sometimes he was in the attic or down in the basement mentally because of some of the trauma that he, that he received. And he’s eventually going to start to lose confidence in Joseph Smith in Nauvoo, and Joseph’s going to lose confidence in him. And we talk about all of that, Casey. But what I find fascinating is that Sidney Rigdon fulfilled all five assignments that Section 35 gave him, and he fulfilled them very, very well. And we should honor him for that.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, we’re maybe a little too hard on him. We underestimate how important he was to the early Restoration. There’s a lot to admire about him. Now, since we’ve kind of slammed these two last sections together, can I talk a little bit about Edward Partridge?

Scott Woodward:
Yes.

Casey Griffiths:
Who I have a soft spot in my heart for. Edward Partridge, once Joseph Smith referred to him as “a man as Nathaniel of old,” meaning he has no guile. He’s a convert to Sidney Rigdon’s church. He’s only been a member for two years with him and his wife. And when the missionaries first arrive in the area, Edward Partridge just flat out tells them they’re impostors. Like he says, You guys are fake. And later on, it’s recorded that Oliver Cowdery turns to him and says, I’m thankful that there’s a God in heaven who knew the hearts of all men. And this really, like, impacts Edward, that Oliver says that, basically, that Oliver is saying, Yeah, I think you’re an honest person. I’m glad that God knows who I am. And Edward is intrigued. He starts to study. His wife, Lydia, gets baptized, but he’s still unsure about what he should do and says he doesn’t want to join the Church until he can speak with Joseph face to face.

Casey Griffiths:
So according to another convert from the era, this is Philo Dibble, Edward went to New York not only for himself, but on behalf of other people in Painesville who wanted to know what the deal was with this new church. They even helped pay his expenses for the trip, and they chose him as their representative because Philo Dibble said, quote, “He is a man who would not lie to save his right arm.” So they all believe that Edward is this incredible figure of integrity. According to the story, they make it to New York by early December, 1830. And they come to Waterloo. The way Joseph Smith’s mother remembers it was that they walked in while Joseph was preaching. And they sat down while the sermon was going on. She said, “Mr. Partridge arose and stated that he had been to Manchester in search of us to ascertain the truth of what we had preached, that he had visited some of our neighbors in that place, inquired about the character of the family, and some they said that the Smith family were very respectable people, and no one could say aught against them until Joseph deceived them about the plate.

Casey Griffiths:
“He also walked over our farm and seen the neatness, order and industry, exhibited and everything around. He had seen what we’d sacrifice for the truth’s sake, and yet our enemies did not dispute our veracity upon any point but that of religion.” So Edward Partridge is kind of the guy that would, like, look at your farm and say, Well, this is a well-kept farm. Like, these people seem like good, good people. And everybody in Palmyra said, Well, the Smiths were great until all this nonsense about the plates. Edward Partridge, when he speaks to Joseph Smith, walks up and says, I’m ready to be baptized if, Brother Joseph, you will baptize me. And Joseph replies, You have traveled a long way this morning, and you are much fatigued, and I think you’d better rest and take some refreshment and tomorrow morning be baptized. Just as you think, Edward said, I am ready. So shortly after this conversation, Joseph Smith receives Section 36 on behalf of Edward Partridge. And despite the fact that it is December, Edward is baptized in the Seneca River on December 11th. Three days following the baptism, he’s ordained an elder. And I think I mentioned earlier, he becomes the first bishop in the Church.

Casey Griffiths:
I just love this guy. He is such a good person. He’s one of my personal heroes.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, no, amen. I always love to visit his grave in Nauvoo. There’s a little cemetery just off the beaten path, just on the outside of Nauvoo. I always like to take a quiet moment. I admire him deeply. We’ll talk more as the revelations continue about his great contributions as the first bishop of the Church, as the first full-time general authority of the Church, really, if you think about it. He’s the first person the Lord calls to not work anymore in like a normal vocation, but to dedicate himself entirely to the work of the Church. And he does. Such an example of consecration. And so we’ll get into all that in future revelations. It’ll be plenty of time to highlight his incredible contributions. But for now, let’s just dive into the content of this revelation, how his relationship begins here with the Lord. First thing the Lord says to him is, “Edward, you are blessed and your sins are forgiven you, and,” in the same breath, “you are called to preach my gospel as with the voice of a trump.” Everyone in this first generation is called to preach the gospel almost immediately upon them joining the Church. And then an interesting phrase in verse 2, “And I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant, Sidney Rigdon, and you shall receive my Spirit, the Holy Ghost, even the Comforter, which shall teach you the peaceable things of the kingdom.”

Scott Woodward:
I love that imagery of, I will lay my hand upon you by the hand of my servant, Sidney Rigdon. Something intimate about that. And it makes me think about ordinances and those who stand in for the Lord. The Lord could say to us this Sunday, perhaps, I will administer the sacrament to you by the hand of the priests that are up there, and I will pass it to you by the hand of those deacons in the ward. I don’t know. There’s something beautiful, intimate about that. And then he continues to elaborate on this commission to go and preach the gospel, to do it “with a loud voice, blessing God, blessing the name of the Most High. Now this calling and commandment give I unto you concerning all men that as many as come before my servants, Sidney and Joseph, embracing this calling and commandment shall be ordained and sent forth to preach the gospel among the nations.” Right, that was the standing practice at this time. Anyone who embraces the gospel sent forth to preach. “Crying repentance, to this generation.” And so Edward, you are fitting right into this pattern of how things are being done now. This is your commission, so “gird up your loins and I will suddenly come to my temple. Even so. Amen.”

Scott Woodward:
So here it is. He’s in. He’s baptized and now called. We don’t typically give people mission calls a day after they join the Church today, Casey, or the day of, but here it is, nonetheless, there’s an urgency to this work, and so it’s time. And Edward will just do an incredible job preaching the gospel, yes, but primarily, as we talked about, he’s going to be pulled from the mission field and put directly into that spot as the first bishop of the Church, and he’ll work tirelessly the rest of his life to serve the poor and to help the Church implement its financial systems, consecration in all of its various looks and forms. And will die in Nauvoo kind of early in his, in his 40s after just giving himself in the service of God.

Casey Griffiths:
Literally works himself to death. And we’ll talk more about him when we get to the revelations on consecration. But I do want to mention one thing. That’s in Section 124, verse 19, this is after Edward’s passed away. The Lord mentions him and then says, I’ve received him unto myself. Meaning this is one guy we know made it according to the revelation that the Lord gave.

Scott Woodward:
Doesn’t he say, is it verse 19 where he says, in Doctrine and Covenants 124, that Edward Partridge is sitting with Abraham at his right-hand.

Casey Griffiths:
And “blessed and holy is he, for he is mine.” Beautiful language.

Scott Woodward:
It’s a very good place, but pretty rocky, difficult times to pass through to get there, as we’ll discuss in future episodes. But we began by framing this whole thing in the Parable of the Sower, Matthew 13.

Casey Griffiths:
Let’s go through the people. Where do we think they ended up? We’re not trying to be judgmental here. We’re just reading history and saying, you know, What ground do you think they were? So David Whitmer, wayside, stony ground, thorny ground, good ground. What do you think?

Scott Woodward:
So complicated. His testimony in the Book of Mormon is the best. His view of Joseph Smith is the worst. He stays out of the Church after he leaves for like 50 years, never comes back. But to his dying day, bears witness of the Book of Mormon. I don’t know. I don’t know how to categorize David.

Casey Griffiths:
I’m going to say thorny ground just because he’s in the Church for quite a while.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah.

Casey Griffiths:
And elements of his testimony survive his entire life, but he doesn’t stay in the Church and, and dies estranged from it. So I’m going to say thorny ground.

Scott Woodward:
Okay, okay.

Casey Griffiths:
John Whitmer.

Scott Woodward:
Pretty good until 1838, right. He’s going to leave the Church in 1838. Would that be thorny as well? I mean, he’s pretty consecrated, pretty dedicated guy. But then in the midst of the fallout in Kirtland, is he stony or is he thorny?

Casey Griffiths:
We’re not trying to be judgmental here, but thorny ground, right. Like, elements of his testimony survive to the last day of his life, but he also doesn’t endure fully in the faith and dies outside of it, too. So what about Peter Whitmer, Jr.?

Scott Woodward:
Dies faithful. He seems to be good. Good ground. What do you think?

Casey Griffiths:
Good ground, dies in 1836. Again, we don’t know what he would have done if he was alive when his family left, but he does die fully committed. Parley P. Pratt, what’s your read on him?

Scott Woodward:
Good ground, and I think he brings forth a hundredfold. He is so fruitful.

Casey Griffiths:
Some people have said that his tract, A Voice of Warning, is almost as influential as the Book of Mormon. Just brings thousands and thousands of people into the gospel, and then their descendants are as multitudes. I mean, he’s good ground. Okay, Ziba Peterson.

Scott Woodward:
I think stony or, or wayside. I don’t know. We don’t know much about him, do we?

Casey Griffiths:
We got so excited about Parley P. Pratt that we forgot to mention that Ziba Peterson really struggled and eventually was excommunicated. So I’m going to say stony or thorny ground. No disrespect to him.

Scott Woodward:
Can we learn from both the good examples and the bad examples of some of these folks in Church history and to learn to be, as Moroni said, to learn to be more wise than some of them, to be inspired to be the kind of fruitful people that some of these other ones were? I mean, is that the name of this game? Is that why we’re doing this, Casey?

Casey Griffiths:
I want to emphasize that we’re not describing the final destination of these people because we believe, you now, people can change and repent even after this life. Maybe David Whitmer is, you know, a stake president in the spirit world right now. We’re just tracking the course of their mortal lives and not making judgments, just saying what kind of ground. So, Ezra Thayre, what do you think?

Scott Woodward:
Short-lived, right? Sad case. Spiritually dead. Is that how he’s described?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, but he does endure for several decades. You know, so I would say he’s probably thorny ground.

Scott Woodward:
Thirty-fold?

Casey Griffiths:
Maybe, yeah. Northrop Sweet.

Scott Woodward:
Short-lived, right?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. He’s the wayside or stony ground because he doesn’t make it very long. Orson Pratt.

Scott Woodward:
Hundredfold. Yea, more. Good ground.

Casey Griffiths:
Sidney Rigdon.

Scott Woodward:
Complicated. Good fruits. Is there a category for people who receive serious head trauma and are never quite the same thereafter?

Casey Griffiths:
Let’s go easy on him because we don’t know how much that affected him. And Edward Partridge.

Scott Woodward:
Amazing. Yeah, hundredfold. He’s such good ground.

Casey Griffiths:
Part of the reason why I do this exercise is I encounter a lot of people who have had people that they love or that they care about leave the Church or go into a period where they’re, you know, less active or don’t affiliate with the Church very much. And it can be pretty devastating. And again, we’re not making final judgments about these people in Church history or your friends, neighbors, or family members that may have had complicated relationships with the Church. Just to say that the Savior seemed to be trying to prepare his disciples to know that that was part of the deal. That some people are good ground, they accept the seed, and a hundredfold, a thousandfold, bring people into the gospel. Others have more complicated relationships. Some leave immediately, some endure for a time and then struggle, but it’s normal. It was normal then and it’s normal now. We have to learn to honor the agency of others. There’s a lot of complicated reasons why some people falter and why some people prosper, but the most important factor is their own personal choices. Our task is to love others and honor their agency. And only the Savior knows which people will accept or reject the gospel, and only he knows what their ultimate eternal fate will be, our job is to just love everyone and invite them to come into Christ.

Casey Griffiths:
So I think these early converts speak to the modern struggles of the Church, where some people do really well and accept the gospel and run with it, and some people struggle, and some people it just never really takes hold in their hearts. That’s just the Savior, I think, preparing us for the consequences of people having the right, the agency, the power to make their own choices.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. We are not called to make final judgments on people. We are called to invite all to come unto Christ and let the chips fall where they may. That’s as true of people on our missions as it is of our own children, of those in our stewardships that we’re called to serve and to teach. Our job is not to live the gospel for them. Our job is to teach the gospel, invite to repentance, and try ourselves to be humble, to pray always, to keep our covenants, to keep the commandments, to speak the gospel with a voice of rejoicing. It’s a lot of confidence in what our Savior can do for people if they’ll come under him. Well, good. Thank you, Casey.

Casey Griffiths:
We Sidney Rigdoned in this one. We couldn’t get it done in less than 2 hours. There was a lot to talk about, and it’s setting us up for some very important developments down the road. So, Scott, thanks for going on this trip with me.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, you too. Thanks, Casey. We’ll see you next you next week.

Casey Griffiths:
We’ll see you next week.