Scott Woodward:
Whoa, Casey, what’s going on here?

Casey Griffiths:
They’re traveling so fast that one of the wheels falls off the wagon, and Joseph and the constable have to jump off the wagon and put the wheel back on while the mob is coming up on them. And in this disagreeable manner, did we pass the night.

Scott Woodward:
What a great statement. In this disagreeable manner, did we pass the night.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
Hello, Casey.

Casey Griffiths:
Hello, Scott.

Scott Woodward:
We’re back. Doctrine and Covenants 23 through 26 today. And wow, we missed you last week. You were on what? Companionship exchanges over on the Follow Him podcast?

Casey Griffiths:
Yes. Spending time with our friends Hank and John. It’s always a joy to go over there. And they have snacks, can I say? Like, we need to get snacks.

Scott Woodward:
That’s the missing piece, I think, to take it to the next level.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. We’ll see if it’s in the budget or anything like that. But that is one thing that they have going for them that we don’t have going for us right now.

Scott Woodward:
Wow. But do they have swag?

Casey Griffiths:
Oh, yeah, we do have… Yeah, we’ve got stickers.

Scott Woodward:
We got some stickers. Okay, they actually have cooler swag than us, totally.

Casey Griffiths:
They have sweaters, I think, at this point, so.

Scott Woodward:
Oh, man, All right.

Casey Griffiths:
We’re not, we’re not being covetous. We’re just expressing admiration for…

Scott Woodward:
We love Hank Smith and John Bytheway.

Scott Woodward:
They have been very kind and generous to us on this podcast. They are dear friends. And if you’ve got time to listen to both, we highly recommend it. They will typically interview an expert on a particular block. And so Casey happened to be that last week for them.

Casey Griffiths:
Good to be back. And I saw that you had my, my dear friend Anthony Sweat with you, who is a wonderful guy.

Scott Woodward:
We did. He was so awesome. He did a great job. It was awesome to have him on, and… But it’s good to have you back, Casey, so.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. What we’re doing today is a really great block as well. This is kind of the immediate post-organization sections where I think they thought that the top of the mountain was going to be organizing the Church, and they didn’t realize that that was the beginning of their troubles, not the end of their troubles. And these sections deal with some of Joseph Smith’s closest family and friends. In fact, the person closest to him, his wife, Emma Smith, is highlighted in Section 25, which we want to spend plenty of time on as we talk about this today. So should we just get into it?

Scott Woodward:
So Doctrine and Covenants, Section 23 through 26. Let’s start with 23. Casey, drop us into the context.

Casey Griffiths:
So Section 23 was originally five really short sections in the Book of Commandments. So Book of Commandments is the 1833 edition of the Doctrine and Covenants. That’s the very first attempt they have to publish it. And these show up in here as chapters 17 to 21 in the 1833 Book of Commandments. But when the Doctrine and Covenants was published in 1835, two years later, they just decided to combine all these together and created the section that we’re familiar with today. And it’s been that way ever since. But it’s given to five people who are very close to Joseph Smith. That’s Oliver Cowdery, who’s the second elder of the Church. There’s Hyrum Smith, Joseph’s older brother. There’s Samuel Smith, Joseph’s brother, Joseph Smith’s father, who’s already had Section 4 received on his behalf, and Joseph Knight, who we talked a little bit about earlier when we discussed Doctrine and Covenants 12, which was given to Joseph Knight. A kind of short section that has some very, you know, one to two verse items of counsel to each of these good men and some interesting kind of hints at what the future is for each of them.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. So it makes sense to consolidate these, right? Because like you said, it’s one or two verses each. They were rapid fire. I think they were given, like, back to back to back, weren’t they? Like, on the same setting, we think. We’re not sure.

Casey Griffiths:
We think all in maybe on the same occasion where all these are happening, just. And so it made sense to maybe combine them.

Scott Woodward:
Okay, awesome. Let’s just do a quick flyby, actually. Verses 1 to 2 are to Oliver Cowdery. And then verse 3 is to Hyrum. So he gets one verse. Verse 4 is to Samuel Smith. He gets a verse. And then we go to verse 5. That’s to Joseph Smith, Sr. He gets a verse. And then verse 6 and 7 to cap it off, goes to Joseph Knight, Sr. So just shorties but goodies. Let’s dive into verses one and two to Oliver Cowdery. And there is a little warning here, Casey, that seems to play out in a really interesting way in Oliver’s future. Here’s what the Lord says in verse one, “Behold, I speak unto you, Oliver, a few words. Behold, thou art blessed and art under no condemnation, but beware of pride, lest thou shouldst enter into temptation.” Now that’s interesting, right. We know something about his future. In fact, only a few months after this revelation is given, Oliver is going to enter into a contention with Joseph Smith over some of the wording in Section 20, verse 37. We covered that in our last episode. And then he’s going to be embroiled again in another dispute over who has the right to receive revelation in the Church.

Scott Woodward:
That would be Section 28 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which we’ll cover next week. Oliver is trying to figure out to what degree he can push back on Joseph Smith’s revelations and thoughts. To be able to do it in a way that’s not prideful is difficult for him, it seems early on. But he does humble himself in both occasions that I just mentioned, he’s back in stride. However, we also know that Oliver is going to be excommunicated in 1838. Now, Wilford Woodruff related a really interesting conversation between Joseph and Oliver. In fact, this is from a talk that Wilford Woodruff gave where he said this. He states a general principle, and then he tells the specifics about Oliver. He says, quote, “If the President of the Church, or either of his counselors, or any of the apostles, or any other man, feels in in his heart that God cannot do without him and that he is especially important in order to carry on the work of the Lord, he stands on slippery ground. I heard,” Wilford Woodruff says, “Joseph Smith say that Oliver Cowdery, who was the second apostle in this Church, said to him, quote, ‘If I leave this Church, it will fall,’ Oliver says.

Scott Woodward:
Says Joseph, ‘Oliver, you try it.’ Oliver tried it, and he fell, and the Church did not.” Interesting foreshadowing verse one, beware of pride, Oliver.

Casey Griffiths:
And I mean, the way Wilford Woodruff is describing this is how it actually played out. We’ve got a nice little article over on Scripture Central that goes through the details of Oliver Cowdery’s excommunication. It might not even be correct to say he was excommunicated because he resigns from the Church, just like Wilford Woodruff describes. He leaves the Church before he can be excommunicated and doesn’t attend his excommunication hearing either. Just writes a letter basically saying, The Church is infringing on my rights, and they don’t have any right to do that, so I’ve resigned my membership in the Church, and he leaves. Now, I want to be clear here, Oliver does come back and dies in full fellowship in the Church, but he doesn’t achieve the same place in the Church hierarchy that he held before. I mean, he was practically the co-found founder of the Church, and never quite reaches those heights again after he comes back.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, shortly after he returns, he gets sick and dies suddenly in Richmond, Missouri, doesn’t he?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, I think he’s rebaptized in 1848, and then he goes to Richmond, and he stays with his in-laws, the Whitmer family, but he dies while he’s there. But he does, according to several people, including David Whitmer, who has, you know, no reason to say why he would do this, affirm his testimony of the Book of Mormon as a witness of the Book of Mormon.

Scott Woodward:
I guess in some ways, you could say at the end of his life, Oliver did humble himself. I can’t imagine how difficult that would have been for him to make that journey back to the Church knowing that he was in such high station before he left the Church or was excommunicated. However we want to say that. To come back, that would require a great deal of humility, swallowing his pride and saying that I want to be associated with this Church. I left the Church, and it obviously did not fail. I’m back. I don’t want to have any great station in the Church. I just want to have a place in the Church. That would, again, require a great deal of humility. So we’re proud of his return, but we’re sad as we think about what might have been had he stayed in the Church and continued to lend his influence to its building and growth. During those crucial years, he was gone from 1838 to 1848.

Casey Griffiths:
And I mean, if you read his letter in his excommunication hearing, there was a lot of complicated stuff going on there. And again, I’ll refer you to the article, but it was clear that Oliver was a little prideful in the way that he approached this. I think a little humility might have caused him to go to the hearing. And I think that if he had attended the hearing, there was a decent chance that he wouldn’t have been excommunicated from the Church. But instead, he chose to write a letter and resigned. So all of this is speculation on my part. I want to be totally clear. But I still see him as a little sad because he could have stayed with the Church and been highly esteemed. I don’t know. Joseph Fielding Smith thinks he would have died in Carthage Jail if he had stayed in the Church. So another speculation, right? But there’s no doubt his significance, but that also this was a stumbling block for him.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. So verse 3.

Casey Griffiths:
Verses 3 and 4 are to Hyrum and Samuel, Joseph Smith’s brothers. And I want to point out a couple of things in verse 3. The Lord tells Hyrum, “Thou also art no condemnation. Thy heart is opened and thy tongue loose, and thy calling is exhortation to strengthen the church continually. Therefore thy duty is unto the church forever, and this because of thy family.” And so you’ll recall, Section 11 of the Doctrine and Covenants was earlier given to Hyrum Smith. And in that one, the Lord promised him that his tongue would be loosed. Like, we always quote that because the Lord told him, First seek to obtain my word, then shall your tongue be loosed. It’s this scripture we share with missionaries who are getting ready to go all the time. This is just the official, your tongue will be loose. The Lord telling Hyrum, It’s time. Now the hour of your mission has come, so go and do.

Scott Woodward:
That’s pretty cool, right? It’s like a year later. He’s like, Okay, now you’re ready. Go. Your tongue is loosed.

Casey Griffiths:
And I’ll point out, too, where he says, “Thy duty is under the church forever, and this because of thy family.” I’ve known some people that were descendants of Hyrum Smith. There’s been a prominent line of leaders. Joseph F. Smith, who’s the son of Hyrum. A lot of the patriarchs of the Church, an office that we don’t have anymore were, descendants descendants of Hyrum. In fact, they were all Smith descendants. And even the late M. Russell Ballard, who just recently passed away. Some people have spoken about that promise. And we should point out that putting these verses right next to Oliver Cowdery is significant because Hyrum is eventually going to succeed Oliver as the second elder of the Church. He holds the office of patriarch to the Church, and he fell a martyr with Joseph Smith in Carthage Jail. So Section 124 says the same powers which were placed upon Oliver Cowdery are now placed upon you. So he does effectively take Oliver Cowdery’s place as the second elder or the second witness of the Restoration, which is interesting.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. And again, it’s kind of a sobering reminder that none of us is indispensable in the work of God. God wants us to help out. He can totally use all of us, but none of us is indispensable. And this is a sobering example in our Church’s history, where when Oliver fell out, Hyrum filled that spot and did a great job. And his descendants have been remarkable in this Church. We actually do know that Oliver does not have any descendants, not just in the Church, but at all. He had a daughter, one daughter, Maria, who lived to adulthood, but there are no descendants of Oliver Cowdery today.

Casey Griffiths:
Oliver died in full fellowship, so we’re not saying the Lord condemned him or anything like that, but that’s just an interesting side-by-side. They’re right next to each other. Verse 4 is to Samuel Smith. This is Joseph’s little brother. The Lord tells him he’s under no condemnation. “Thy calling is to exhortation, and to strengthen the Church thou art not as yet called to preach before the world.” Now, it is interesting that the Lord doesn’t give him a commission to teach, but Samuel is traditionally honored as the first missionary in the history of the Church. Only a couple of days after this revelation is given. Samuel embarks with a knapsack full of copies of the Book of Mormon, and he’s really discouraged. In fact, we tell this story to missionaries a lot because there’s their forerunner. You want to hear about the first one. Samuel only manages to give away a few copies, but he does give one to John P. Greene, who’s a Methodist minister. He agreed to take the book on his next preaching tour and see if anybody else was interested. John P. Greene also was married to a woman named Rhoda Greene.

Casey Griffiths:
So Samuel goes back and visits with the Greene family. Samuel offers Rhoda the book, and according to him, she burst into tears and asked if he would pray for her. So Samuel did. He promised her that the Spirit of God would give her a testimony of the things that she’d read. And within a year, both Rhoda and her husband get baptized. So he’s not completely without success. In fact, this is where it gets really interesting. So Rhoda introduces Samuel to her brother, who’s named Phineas. And Phineas later recalls a meeting with Samuel, pointing out his name on a page that lists the Eight Witnesses. This is where Phineas tells the story. He says, he pointed at the Eight Witnesses in the back of the book. He said, In response to this inquiry, Samuel responded, Yes, I know the book to be a revelation from God, translated by the gift and power of the Holy Ghost, and that my brother, Joseph Smith, Jr. is a prophet, seer, and revelator. And so, Phineas, Rhoda’s brother, converts, and then they share the book with their brother, whose name is Brigham. And you might have guessed the last name of Rhoda, Phineas, and Brigham, or at least Rhoda’s maiden name was…

Scott Woodward:
Young.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. So kind of a cool story that Samuel may have thought he was a failure as a missionary, but he does manage to convert the second president of the Church, and Phineas Young, who’s a leader in the Seventy, and I think most of the Young family gets baptized and joins the Church. So keep planting those seeds out there. You never know.

Scott Woodward:
It’s always struck me as a little bit funny. Every time I read the end of verse 4, I smile. It says, “Thou art not as yet called to preach before the world.” So a couple of days later, with a knapsack full of copies of the Book of Mormon, he’s out preaching. He’s out trying to share. The Lord didn’t say when. He would be called. He just said not yet. And so he says, okay, that must mean not today. He’s just zealous. He’s just like, I want to get out there. I’m chomping at the bit. And so does the Lord reward his his eagerness to share the gospel? He does. Yeah. Like you said, this leads to Brigham Young, Phineas Young, Rhoda Young coming into the Church. Super cool.

Casey Griffiths:
And we don’t hear a lot about Samuel. We did do a great interview a couple of weeks ago with Kyle Walker, who’s an expert on the Smith family. He mentioned that a lot of people said that Samuel wasn’t as well-spoken as some of his brothers. I think the phrase they used was “slow of speech.” But boy, do I love him because, you know, it’s not necessarily the most articulate person. It’s the person who is most sincere that sometimes really, really becomes an amazing missionary. In fact, Brigham Young tells a story about his own conversion where he talks about people that were really articulate, didn’t really appeal to him. But when he heard a humble missionary, bear testimony. And by the way, it wasn’t Samuel, it was Eleazer Miller. That that set his heart on fire, and that caused him to come to know that the gospel was true. But the copy of the Book of Mormon that Brigham Young was using there came through Samuel Smith. So, a major blessing for him.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. And Brigham will take like two years to investigate the Church, right. He’s going to read that copy thoroughly. He’s going to be very careful in how he comes into the Church. So it’s not like, boom, Samuel shared the book, boom, Brigham Young got baptized. Sometimes these things take a long time, Brigham comes into the Church because of Eleazer Miller. He calls him a man without eloquence. Tag team, Samuel and Eleazer Miller.

Casey Griffiths:
Yes. Both of them bring him into the gospel. And there’s a lot of stuff there. Boy, I’d love to talk about Brigham. We might have to do a series on him after we’re done. But he’s also taking care of a sick wife and has a bunch of little kids. And there were a lot of reasons why he took his time. And it is okay for an investigator, a person searching out the gospel, to take a little time and make sure that it’s correct.

Scott Woodward:
Okay, let’s go to verse 5. Verse 5 is again to Joseph Smith, Sr. The Lord simply says he’s not under condemnation. He is called to exhort and strengthen the Church. “And this is thy duty from henceforth and forever. Amen.” So not called to go out preaching to non-members, although he’ll go on a couple of missions, but his main duty is to strengthen the Church, which he will do to his dying day. He dies in 1840, I believe, and is remarkable. He’ll become a patriarch in the Church, and he will do a lot of exhortation and strengthening through his patriarchal blessings.

Casey Griffiths:
And then the next verse deals with Joseph Knight, who was introduced to us in Section 12. And the Lord says some pretty direct things here, too, including verse 7, “It is your duty to unite with the true church and give your language to exhortation continually.” Joseph Knight wasn’t baptized when this revelation was given.

Scott Woodward:
Which is funny, right, because he’s been such a friend of the Smiths. He was there helping Joseph when Joseph needed supplies for the translation of the Book of Mormon. He helped, I mean, he gave Joseph his wagon so he could go date Emma before they married. He’s always been a friend, but he just hasn’t joined the Church yet for some reason.

Casey Griffiths:
He gave Joseph the wagon that Joseph took the Hill Cumorah with Emma to pick up the plates. Joseph Knight hadn’t been baptized at this time, but he was baptized on June 27, 1830, along with several other members of his family. And Father Knight wrote his own history. In the history, he wrote, Soon after the Church began to grow, the people began to be angry and persecute, and called them fools and said they were deceived. But Father Knight stays true to his testimony and the covenants he made at his baptism until the end of his life. We’ve mentioned this before, but the Knights are still a wonderful family that’s in the Church and has done marvelous things.

Scott Woodward:
I feel like I meet descendants of Joseph Knight like all the time. Just a couple of weeks ago, someone told me, I’m a descendant of Newel Knight, which is part of this family, and their descendants continue to be with us today, which is awesome.

Casey Griffiths:
Anything really controversial in these verses for you, Scott?

Scott Woodward:
You could have some fun discussions with this section as you talk about Samuel, talk about Eleazer Miller, talk about what makes a good missionary. Oftentimes, it’s not what you think. It’s attributes more than it is skills, right. It’s humility and sincerity more than it is slick tongue and articulate. You could talk about hesitance to commit with Joseph Knight. The Lord tells him right here in April of 1830 to get baptized, join the Church, which he does, but not until June. Like, he continues to drag his feet. But once he’s in, he’s in, as we said. By the way, he was also insecure about praying vocally, praying in public. He was insecure about that. So was his son Newel. We’ll talk about him in a minute. So the Lord, right here in verse 6, says, You got to “pray vocally before the world as well as in secret.” And it’s not controversial, but just to watch what the Lord can do with, like Section 1 calls them, weak and simple but humble people who are willing to turn themselves over to God and thrust in their sickle. It’s just awesome to see what he can do, so. Not really a controversy, but some paradigm shifts about what makes a successful missionary.?

Scott Woodward:
What makes a successful leader in the Church? Sometimes it’s not what we think.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, it’s not a one size fits all, right? Yeah. But outside of that, I can’t think of any controversies. I think some people might put more pressure on Oliver Cowdery because of this verse than is warranted, because it really is eight years after this that he’s excommunicated from the Church. He leaves the Church however you want to define it. What about consequences for this section?

Scott Woodward:
Consequences? I mean, we’ve talked about each individual there. Great things grow out of this section. We’ve got Samuel off to missionary work, Hyrum, Joseph Smith, Sr., Joseph Knight. They do take these particular pieces of counsel. They do apply them, and we see marvelous results come from that. So a small, short, little power-packed verses which, when applied, bore good fruits, as we’ve mentioned with each of them, so. I don’t know. What else would you add to that?

Casey Griffiths:
I would just add Samuel’s role as the first missionary has been rightly and correctly honored. If you go to the MTC, there’s a statue of Samuel there because of his role as the first missionary. I know a guy in Provo, Reid Moon, who has a copy of the Book of Mormon that belonged to Samuel. And I don’t know if Samuel did this or not, but on the page where the Eight Witnesses are, his name is underlined and there’s stars right off to the side. And I don’t know if Samuel did that or a later owner did it because it belonged to Samuel Smith. But just nice and sweet to see these family members that are honored, including the one that kicks off missionary work in the Restoration, one of our grand, grand traditions.

Scott Woodward:
Let’s transition over to Section 24. Drop us into the backstory this one. This one’s rich and interesting.

Casey Griffiths:
This has an intense backstory, and it’s partially the backstory for Section 25. So Section 24 comes when there is some really intense persecution, and they have faced persecution before, but I think to Joseph Smith, there was this feeling of, oh, if I can just get the book translated and get the Church organized, maybe I’ll get a break. Unfortunately, that was not to be. We’ve mentioned in earlier sections that the Church was primarily organized around three locations and three families during this time, the Smith family in Palmyra, and the Whitmer family in Fayette, and the Knight family in Colesville. And generally, there had been prosecution in Palmyra and a little bit in Fayette. And Colesville maybe not as much. However, this is when it really starts to heat up in that Colesville-Harmony area, which is where Emma Smith is from. In the latter part of June of 1830, meetings were held in Colesville, and a number of people, including Emma Smith, are baptized into the Church. And opponents of the Church in the area start to sort of turn the heat up. They tear down a small dam that was constructed in a local stream to perform the baptisms.

Casey Griffiths:
Before Joseph was able to confirm all of these new members, he was arrested by a constable. This is the way Joseph Smith writes his own history, was arrested by him on a warrant on a charge of being a disorderly person, of setting the country in an uproar by preaching the Book of Mormon, close quote.

Scott Woodward:
Is that illegal, Casey?

Casey Griffiths:
I’m not aware of any statute at the time, but it seems like people didn’t like the Book of Mormon. And apparently, some of these were even related to Emma Smith, like her uncle is sometimes singled out in this. But okay, so he gets arrested before he can confirm these people, members of the Church. And then this is where the story gets even crazier. Okay, so this is directly from Joseph Smith’s history. He said, The constable informed me soon after I had been arrested that the plan of those who had got out the warrant was to get me into the hands of the mob who were now lying in ambush for me, but that he was determined to save me from them as he found me to be a different sort of person from what I had been represented to him. So they’re traveling on their way to the Knight home, the place where Joseph Knight and his family lives, and the wagon is surrounded by a mob. The mob hesitates when they see the constable with Joseph, and the constable is able to drive the wagon away from the mob. But they’re traveling so fast that one of the wheels falls off the wagon, and Joseph and the constable have to jump off the wagon and put the wheel back on while the mob is coming up on them.

Casey Griffiths:
And then that night, they make it to South Bainbridge, where they stay for the night. But according to Joseph, the constable, this is what he says, slept during the night with his feet against the door and a loaded musket by his side, whilst I occupied a bed which was in the room, having declared that if he were interrupted unlawfully, he would fight for me and defend me as far as in his power. So this constable sounds like a good fella. He takes pity on Joseph, but he does fulfill his duty to take Joseph to trial. So while all this is happening, Joseph Knight is gathering people to speak on behalf of Joseph’s character at the trial. So they get Josiah Stowell. This is the guy that employed Joseph Smith to find the Silver mine. He brings in Stowell’s daughters. He brings in several citizens from Colesville. And in the trial, Joseph later notes that Josiah Stowell’s daughters, for example, quote, “bore such testimony in my favor as left the enemies without a pretext for their account.” And Joseph is acquitted and he’s about to be freed when suddenly he served with a different warrant from a different constable from Broome County.

Casey Griffiths:
So Joseph is just basically acquitted in his first trial when he gets arrested and taken to a second trial by a second constable. And this constable isn’t as favorable as the first one is.

Scott Woodward:
Not so friendly.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, not so friendly. So this is the way Joseph describes it. He says, The second constable, quote, “took me to a tavern and gathered in a number of men who used every means to abuse, ridicule and insult me. They spit upon me. They pointed their fingers at me saying, Prophesy, prophesy, and thus they did imitate those who crucified the Savior of mankind not knowing what they did,” end quote. So the constable refuses to let Joseph spend the night in a home and refuses him to give anything more than just a few crusts of bread or water to eat. And when it came time to sleep, Scott, like imagine this. The constable, according to Joseph, Joseph said, The constable, quote, “made me lie next to the wall. Then he laid himself down by me and put his arm around me. And upon moving in the least, he would clench me fast, fearing that I intended to escape from him. And in this disagreeable manner, did we pass the night.”

Scott Woodward:
What a great statement. In this disagreeable manner, did we pass the night.

Casey Griffiths:
I would feel weird about this guy, you know, snuggling with me to make sure that I wasn’t going to escape or anything like that. Like, that feels like definitely… I won’t call it police brutality, but they’re definitely overstepping their boundaries here, right?

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, seriously.

Casey Griffiths:
So he gets taken to another trial in Broome County, and this time, several of Joseph’s friends, again, appear to testify on his behalf, including Newel Knight, who Joseph had recently cast a devil out of through the use of the priesthood. And Joseph later wrote that those who testified on his behalf, quote, “spoke like men inspired of God, whilst those who were arrayed against me trembled under the sound of their voices quailed before them like criminals before a bar of justice.” And Joseph, again, is acquitted. And afterwards, the constable who abused him the whole night before actually apologizes and ask for his forgiveness. So I guess constable number two isn’t as nice as constable number one, but he’s not a bad guy nonetheless. However, they’re still not done. In company of Oliver Cowdery, Joseph returns to Colesville to perform the confirmations. He still hasn’t been able to confirm the people that were baptized during this time.

Casey Griffiths:
But rumors began to circulate that another mob was gathering to capture Joseph, and this time Oliver Cowdery, who’s with him. So Joseph and Oliver take off just in time to escape the mob. They later write, Our enemies pursued us, and it was oftentimes as much as we could do to elude them. However, we managed to get home after having traveled all night, except a short time. And he later records, During which we were forced to rest ourselves under a large tree by the wayside, sleeping and watching alternately. And thus we were persecuted on account of our religious faith in a country, the constitution of which guarantees every man the indefeasible right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience, and by men, too, who were professors, professors of religion, he’s specifying here. So a few days after all of this hubbub, Joseph Smith notes that they received the revelation that is now Section 24 of the Doctrine and Covenants. So that’s the context. Thank you for indulging me. It affects Section 25, too. There’s a lot going on, and it feels like they felt like they had made it to the top of the mountain, but, nope, they still had many persecutions to endure.

Casey Griffiths:
In fact, this is the beginning of some pretty serious persecutions that Joseph Smith endures the rest of his life.

Scott Woodward:
Wow. Great job, Casey. That sets us up nicely for the content. Okay, so with that context in mind, look at verse one, see if this makes more sense now, based on what you just described. Quote, “Behold, thou,” Joseph, “was called and chosen to write the Book of Mormon and to my ministry. And I have lifted thee up out of thine afflictions and have counseled thee, that thou has been delivered from all thine enemies.” Think about what just happened. “And thou has been delivered from the powers of Satan and from darkness.” So no doubt relevant to what he had just experienced at the hand of mobs, those arrests, the constable, all of that. The Lord talks about them as enemies and being delivered from powers of Satan and darkness. So Joseph, I’ve been there for you. I helped you bring forth the Book of Mormon. I’ve counseled you. I’ve comforted you. Nevertheless, verse 2 says, “Thou art not excusable in thy transgressions. Nevertheless, go thy way and send no more.” I love that double nevertheless there, Casey. Two neverthelesses in one sentence. Nevertheless, you’re not excusable in your transgressions. Nevertheless, go thy way and send no more. This is the God we’re dealing with, one who forgives sin, but is also not happy anytime we commit it.

Scott Woodward:
I’m grateful for that double nature of God there. This justice, this mercy, it’s beautiful. Double neverthelesses. Verse 3, Joseph is told to magnify his office and to, after that, go sow his fields and secure them, and then go speedily to Colesville again and to Fayette and Manchester, and they will support you, and I will bless them both spiritually and temporarily. This is an interesting moment of time where Joseph is now the leader of this new fledgling Church. It’s only a couple of months old now. This is in July of 1830. What’s Joseph supposed to do to get money? What’s he supposed to do for a job, for a career, like? The Lord tells him here, Go sow your fields. I know you’re concerned about all these things. But then also go to Colesville and strengthen them. Then go to Fayette and go to Manchester, and they will support you financially. I will bless them both spiritually and temporarily. If they don’t receive you, I will send upon them a cursing instead of a So Joseph is right here in the transitional stage of figuring out how he’s going to provide for himself and family. And with that concern on his mind, I think these verses came as a sweet little bomb there.

Scott Woodward:
The Church will support you, Joseph. So do that. By the way, Casey, how would you feel if just on the heels of all those Colesville persecutions, the Lord says, Go sow your fields and then go back to Colesville and strengthen the Church there? I don’t know. I might start having a little bit of the shakes going back to Colesville, a little, a little trepidatious to go back to that place, but he does.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. He does.

Scott Woodward:
And things work out fine. What do you want to say about that?

Casey Griffiths:
Well, I mean, there are some indications that Joseph felt like, once I get the book translated and the Church organized, I can have a normal life. And the Lord telling him to sow his fields, I mean, we need to remember that he still has to provide for his family. He’s got a wife that he needs to provide for. And all these persecutions and everything happening may have caused some serious anxiety on Joseph’s part as to whether or not he was going to be able to do that, so. Yeah, that does scare you a little bit, doesn’t it?

Scott Woodward:
Yes, totally. Great thought. Now, let’s go to verse 5. The Lord says to Joseph, “And thou shalt continue in calling upon God in my name and writing the things which shall be given thee by the Comforter, and expounding all scriptures unto the Church.” This, Casey, this might be a little slant-wise reference to a work that Joseph had just begun. Today, we call it the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. “Writing the things which shall be given thee by the Comforter.” Certainly that would include revelations and other things. But something that comes on the heels of the Colesville persecutions is Moses chapter 1. This is kind of… These don’t always get put together, but they happened together. As Joseph and Oliver were being chased out of Colesville and finally made it huffing and puffing into Harmony, Pennsylvania, the Lord, Joseph says in his history, who well knew our infantile and delicate situation, vouchsafed for us a supply of strength and granted us line upon line, here a little, there a little, of which the following was a precious morsel. And then in his history, he shows Moses chapter 1. He records that, which is effectively the beginning of the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible.

Scott Woodward:
And so really interesting that that starts to grow out of this. Verse 6, the Lord says, “It shall be given thee in the very moment what thou shalt speak and write, and they shall hear it, or I will send unto them a cursing instead of a blessing.” There it is again. I will give it to you. Trust me. My Spirit will be with you in what you need to say and what you need to write. Powerful. I don’t think we always think about Joseph as having personal insecurities relative to his prophetic office, but we’re seeing right here at the beginning, there must be underlying questions in his heart. First, how am I supposed to provide for my family? Second, like, what now? Now that the Church is organized, now what am I supposed to do? And the Lord is now giving him next steps, next steps, right. And you see also in verse Zion, the Lord clarifying what he wants Joseph’s mission to be here, “For thou shalt devote all thy service in Zion, and in this thou shalt have strength.” Everything, full-time, Joseph, in the Church, for Zion, and you will have strength in this. “Be patient in afflictions,” comma, “for thou shalt have many.”

Scott Woodward:
I don’t know if he got the chills with that line. “But endure them, for lo, I am with thee, even unto the end of thy days.” And then the Lord drops this, “And in temporal labors, thou shalt not have strength, for this is not thy calling. Attend to thy calling.” Which is what? Back in verse seven, Devote all your service to Zion. Back in verse five and six, Write the things, speak the things, preach the things that I shall give thee. That’s your calling. But in temporal labors, business ventures, those kinds of things, we know how this is going to play out. He does not have strength. This is not his calling. “Attend to thy calling, and thou shalt have wherewith to magnify thine office and to expound all scriptures.” Again, a likely reference to the Joseph Smith Translation project. “And continue in laying on of the hands and confirming the churches.” So there you go. Joseph is told to give his highest priority, his first responsibility to the Church, and that Church members would support him, strengthen him. He doesn’t need to have anxiety about how to take care of his family in this regard, right. The Lord is giving him some comfort here.

Casey Griffiths:
I don’t know if I would be thrilled to receive a revelation that said, In temporal labors, thou shalt not have strength. That would be tough, right? Because it seems almost like the Lord is saying, you’re not going to have a normal life. Just to put things in context, they are living, he and his wife, Emma, on a little cabin on a farm that’s owned by Emma’s dad. And Emma’s dad, later on, says that he didn’t want them to get married because he didn’t trust Joseph Smith and his revelations, and that he wasn’t sure that Joseph could provide for his daughter. It seems like the Lord is here saying, Yeah, this is going to be a struggle for you. That’s tough.

Scott Woodward:
Anything else you want to say about Joseph not having strength in temporal labors? He does try some business ventures. He does try his hand at some of those things. And how do those go for him? Do you want to give us a quick summary?

Casey Griffiths:
Well, there is kind of this general feeling that Joseph Smith was bad at business because, you know, the failure of the Kirtland bank and later things that happen. But I just think that’s unfair. I think his calling didn’t lend himself to be successful in business. Brigham Young told this story once where he said, Joseph goes to New York and buys $20,000 worth of goods, comes into Kirtland and commences to trade. In comes one of the brother and, Brother Joseph, let me have a frock pattern for my wife. What if Joseph says, No, I cannot without the money? The consequences would be, he is no prophet, says James. Pretty soon, Thomas walks in, Brother Joseph, will you trust me for a pair of boots? No, I cannot let them go without the money. Well, says Thomas, Brother Joseph is no prophet. I have found that out, and I am glad of it. Then Brigham continues, After a while, in comes Bill and Sister Susan, says Bill, Brother Joseph, I want a shawl. I’ve not got the money, but I wish you to trust me for a week or a fortnight. Brother Joseph thinks the others have gone and apostatized, and he don’t know but these goods will make the whole Church do the same.

Casey Griffiths:
So he lets Bill have the shawl. Bill walks off with it and meets a brother. Well, says he, What do you think of Brother Joseph? He’s a first-rate man, and I fully believe he’s a prophet. He has trusted me with this shawl. So Brigham is just trying to capture the paradox of being a businessman and being a prophet, where everybody expected Joseph to be incredibly generous, and that isn’t always conducive to having a successful business. And by all accounts, Joseph Smith was not a hard-nosed businessman. Like he was tender, and he wanted people to, you know, stay in the Church, and he felt like if he was too harsh with them, that they would get in trouble. So I don’t know. I don’t think Joseph Smith was a bad businessman, but I don’t think his calling ever placed him in a position to be really successful on this score. And then later revelations, like the law of consecration, I think always meant that he wasn’t going be the wealthiest guy on the block or in the Church. Just wasn’t in the cards for him. His calling was to address spiritual things and not to ever be successful temporarily, I guess you’d say.

Scott Woodward:
And yet the revelations that come through Joseph will lay the seeds and the groundwork financially for the Church to be where it’s at today, which I think we both know this, Casey, it’s a pretty healthy spot we’re in right now.

Casey Griffiths:
It seems like we’re doing okay, right?

Scott Woodward:
I think we’re doing okay. It’s incredible that the financial success of this Church finds its roots back in the revelations that came through Joseph Smith. We’ll get to those, Section 42 and others as we continue on this year. But I think you’re right. I think it was never his lot to be incredibly wealthy, and yet through him, we, as a Church, have done really, really well, and we’ll continue to do that in order to, back to verse 7, devote all your service to Zion, to build Zion. Build Zion, in this you have strength. And his revelations will enable him and us to do just that. Okay, now let’s go to verse 10 through 14. The second half of this revelation is now actually addressed to Oliver Cowdery. And so the Lord starts speaking through Joseph to Oliver, calls him his brother Oliver. Your brother Oliver, verse 10 says, “shall continue in bearing my name before the world and also to the church, and he shall not suppose that he can say enough in my cause.” I like that. “And lo, I’m with him to the end.” Don’t suppose you can say enough, Oliver, in my cause. “In me, he shall have glory,” verse 11 says, “and not of himself.”

Scott Woodward:
Maybe another reference to his tendencies toward pride. “Whether in weakness or in strength, whether in bonds or free, at all times, in all places, he shall open his mouth and declare my gospel as with the voice of a trump, both day and night, and I’ll give him strength such as is not known among men”. So cool. Verse 13, “Require not miracles, except I shall command you. Except casting out devils.” That’s fine. “Healing the sick, and against poisonous serpents, and against deadly poisons. And these things ye shall not do, except it be required of you by them who desire it, that the scriptures might be fulfilled, for ye shall do according to that which is written.” So what’s going on here with these miracle verses? These seem to be a reference to some of the miracles Jesus promised in the New Testament would follow those that believe, who have faith. It informs both Joseph and Oliver here that they have the power to perform miracles, though it implies they should use that power sparingly. And the Savior might be speaking here of the power of miracles because it was around this time that the very first miracle in the Church was performed, right.

Scott Woodward:
We mentioned Newel Knight. He’s the son of Joseph Knight, Sr. we’ve been talking about. He, like his father, was insecure about praying publicly in Church meetings. And he actually goes to a nearby wood, and made several attempts to pray, kind of get his strength up to pray publicly. But then he felt so bad about not praying publicly that now he felt ashamed of praying privately. And he starts going into this kind of tailspin, and he starts feeling mentally and physically unwell. When he returns home, according to one account, Newel’s wife says she was alarmed at his appearance, and so she calls Joseph Smith, Jr. for help. Joseph, in his own history, later recalled, quote, “I went and found Newel suffering very much in his mind, and his body acted upon in a very strange manner. His visage,” his face, “and limbs, distorted and twisted in every shape and appearance possible to imagine. And finally, he was caught up off the floor of the apartment and tossed about most fearfully.” Whoa. Okay, this is very dramatic. This is devil possession. It’s our earliest account of devil possession in this Church. Super terrifying when you read the account like, Oh, my word. He’s being caught up off the floor and tossed about.

Scott Woodward:
“After he had thus suffered for a time, I succeeded in getting hold of him by the hand, when almost immediately he spoke to me, and with great earnestness requested of me that I should cast the devil out of him, saying that he knew he was in him, and that he also knew that I could cast them out. I replied, Joseph says, ‘If you know that I can, it shall be done.’ And then almost unconsciously, I rebuked the devil and commanded him in the name of Jesus Christ to depart from him. When immediately, Newel spoke out and said that he saw the devil leave him and vanished from his sight.” Wow. Joseph later noted in his history, “This was the first miracle which was done in this Church or by any member of it, and it was done not by man nor by the power of man, but it was done by God and the power of Godliness. Therefore, let the honor and praise, the dominion and the glory be ascribed to the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, forever and ever. Amen.” Wow. So when the Lord mentions this in verse 13, Casting out devils, that’s the first thing he mentions.

Scott Woodward:
Healing the sick, et cetera, et cetera. It’s likely a reference to what had just transpired not too long before this revelation was received. And in fact, you want to tell the story about the… In the court, right? When Joseph had been pressed by those constables and taken to court and trial. Don’t they call Newel Knight up to the stand to talk about this?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, we mentioned that, but Joseph is brought into this trial and Newel Knight testifies on his behalf. This is in Newel Knight’s own history. But when he was asked by one of the attorneys if Joseph had cast the devil out of him, Newel replies to the attorney, No, sir. It was done by the power of God. And Joseph Smith was the instrument in the hands of God on that occasion. He commanded him out of me in the name of Jesus Christ. So Joseph Smith does later certify in his own history and say, this is the first miracle which was done in this Church, but he clarifies, or by any member of it, and it was done not by man nor by the power of man, but it was done by God and by the power of Godliness.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. So both Newel and Joseph give the credit where the credit is due.

Casey Griffiths:
So in the midst of these persecutions, some amazing miracles happening, too. And the miracles become a way for them to free themselves from persecution. Newel’s testimony moves the judge enough that Joseph is acquitted a second time.

Scott Woodward:
Interesting. The last couple of verses here in the context of Joseph dealing with his enemies are interesting and controversial, Casey. Maybe this is our controversy for Section 24. Listen to this. The Lord says, verse 15, I guess, is the verse of controversy. “And in whatsoever place ye shall enter,” you, Joseph and Oliver, “and they receive you not in my name, ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony and cleansing your feet by the wayside.” Casey, what’s going on here? Really? Like, literally? Literally casting dust off? Yeah. What do you want to say about this?

Casey Griffiths:
He’s quoting from the New Testament, right? This is instruction that’s actually given to the Apostles in the New Testament when the Savior calls them to serve. But I have never seen an item that has more folklore or crazy stories surrounding it. When I was a missionary, we heard all kinds of stories about, like, a laundromat that had displayed the missionaries’ garments when they went in to do their laundry, and then the laundromat burned down. And that was one of, I don’t know, several dozen stories that I’ve heard again and again and again. There’s a lot of folklore built up around this. And so we did try to look at it a little bit. Found this quote from James E. Talmage. This is in Jesus the Christ. So Talmage isn’t commenting on the Doctrine and Covenants here. He’s commenting on this instruction as it’s given in the New Testament, but it’s functionally the same. This is what James E. Talmage said, “To ceremonially shake the dust from one’s feet as a testimony against another was understood by the Jews to symbolize a cessation of fellowship and a renunciation of all responsibility for consequences that might follow. It became an ordinance of accusation and testimony by the Lord’s instructions to his Apostles as cited in the text.

Casey Griffiths:
“In the current dispensation, the Lord has similarly directed his authorized servants to so testify against those who are willfully and maliciously opposed the truth when authoritatively presented.” By the way, this isn’t the only place this shows up. It shows up in Section 24. It’s also in Section 60 verse 15, Section 75 verse 20, Section 84 verse 92, and Section 99 verse 4. And then Talmage says, “The responsibility of testifying before the Lord by this accusing symbol is so great that the means may be employed only under unusual and extreme conditions as the Spirit of the Lord may direct.” So lots of folklore about this. There’s even stories about Samuel Smith. Apparently on his first mission, he goes out and he, he’s thrown out of a place by a tavern keeper who calls him a liar. And Samuel brushes off the dust of his feet. And when he comes back, there’s a sign that says that smallpox has been present and that the innkeeper and two of his family died. I don’t know what to make of those things.

Scott Woodward:
I don’t know either. Yeah.

Casey Griffiths:
yeah. Like is that cause and effect? It seems like in the history, that’s the connection that they’re trying to make. But there’s other episodes later on, for instance, in Section 49, Parley P. Pratt delivers a message to the Shakers, and then he shakes the dust off of his coat in front of them, and apparently, nothing happens to the Shakers. So I don’t know what to make of this, Scott. What do you think?

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, it’s interesting. I think you’re right. That this is, this is from the New Testament. It’s bringing what Jesus said to his Apostles now into our dispensation. But what is difficult for me to wrap my head around is, A, when would this be useful? B, why don’t we do it more often and, C, if we did it more often, like, why would we do that? It seems like such a bad PR move. It seems very not forgiving. It seems very not hopeful for a person, like, that people can change, right. It’s almost… There’s kind of a sense of finality to it, right. As Elder Talmage was describing that as you read that, that it’s this cessation of fellowship. It’s a renunciation of all responsibility for consequences that might follow. I don’t know if I’ve ever been in a situation, Casey, where someone has rejected the gospel with such finality that it’s like there is no hope for them, and I should cast the dust off of my garments or my feet toward them. Or as an act of almost, what do you call it? An ordinance of accusation. It just seems there’s like a harshness to it that is, I don’t know, I don’t love it.

Scott Woodward:
But the fact that the Lord has repeated it so many times in the Doctrine and Covenants, you mentioned all the sections it’s in, brings up another question in my mind, which is, if he’s so repeatedly teaching it, then why don’t we do it anymore? And was it ever done very widely at all? I don’t know very many accounts. I think you mentioned the two I’m aware of, Samuel Smith and Parley P. Pratt with the Shakers. I don’t know. I’ve never read a lot of research on this. I don’t think anyone’s done a deep dive, some article or book about this thing. If they have, I’m unaware of it. But I squirm a little bit with this, honestly, Casey. I don’t know what to make of an ordinance of accusation. Why it started, why it stopped? Under what circumstances it would be appropriate to do this?

Casey Griffiths:
I would use the term ordinance lightly there. It’s Elder Talmage’s word, but I mean, in the official handbook today of the Church, there’s ordinances, and this isn’t one of them. It seems like it’s part of its own time and not something that really happens in the Church today. I would be a little bit skeptical about any folklore that you hear about it. Maybe my mission was just full of rumors and accusations, Scott, but I just never saw this in practice and haven’t since and haven’t heard any leader of the Church comment on it in a really, really long time. I’ll leave it where it’s at.

Scott Woodward:
It is speckled through the Doctrine and Covenants. And so when you come across it, I don’t think we have much to offer by way of good explanations, either as to why it began or why it stopped.

Casey Griffiths:
It is what it is.

Scott Woodward:
Okay, so what about the consequences of Section 24, Casey? What would we say about that?

Casey Griffiths:
Well, probably the biggest consequence, and we’ll deal with it probably more thoroughly in a later section, is this marks the beginning of the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. This coincides with that. Joseph Smith’s translation process, which is in some ways going to last throughout the rest of his life, but officially takes place from around this time in 1830 until July 1833. That’s when he finishes the draft. Just has huge consequences, like. One scholar, Robert Matthews, has said that the JST and the Doctrine and Covenants are not entirely separate books. They’re interwoven. It seems like the Book of Mormon was Joseph Smith’s first introduction to the principles and ordinances of the gospel. And then he’s going to go even deeper by studying the Bible and translating the Bible, which is a complicated process that we might need to explain at a later date more thoroughly.

Scott Woodward:
But suffice it to say for today’s purposes, this seems to be the beginning of that. Moses 1 has been received, and the Lord says, Continue in that. And we’ll see him say it again here in Section 26 in a minute. The same thing about study the scriptures and write what the Spirit tells you to write. Good consequences coming out of that. Well, let’s head over to Doctrine and Covenants 25. This is the only revelation, Casey, that’s been given to a woman in the Doctrine and Covenants. Drop us into the history here. You said this grows out of the similar Colesville persecution context. Anything else you want to say?

Casey Griffiths:
It happens around the same time, and we’ve already emphasized this, but it takes place in Emma’s hometown. Just to give you some backstory about Emma Smith, she’s about 26 when this has been received. She’s already lost a baby. She’d been married to Joseph for about three and a half years at this point. But as a lot of people have emphasized, the marriage went against the will of her parents. So Joseph and Emma elope. They do eventually reconcile with her parents. They come back in their living on her parents’ farm. That’s where Joseph Smith translates, probably two-thirds of the Book of Mormon. She’s totally supportive of Joseph, has a great testimony. She’s probably the earliest scribe of the Book of Mormon, that’s what we think, and has a great testimony of the Book of Mormon. In fact, throughout In her life, Emma Smith is continually interviewed about her experiences. In one of her last interviews, she says, My belief is that the Book of Mormon is of divine authenticity. I have not the slightest doubt of it. She wanted to be baptized and join the Church. She wasn’t baptized the day the Church was organized, but she is getting baptized during this time.

Casey Griffiths:
So earlier when we said that they baptized a bunch of people in Colesville, Emma was planning to get baptized in Colesville with several other of converts, including members of the Knight family. So on the afternoon of June 26, they dam up a stream of water to create a pool large enough to baptize the converts. But Joseph says, During the night, a mob collected and tore down our dam, which hindered us from attending the baptism on the Sabbath. So early on Monday morning, Joseph said, We were on the alert, and before our enemies were aware of our proceedings, we had repaired the dam, and Emma, along with 12 other persons, were baptized by Oliver Cowdery. Before the baptismal service was over, though, a mob began to collect that amounted to about 50 men, this is according to Joseph, and Emma and the rest promptly went to the Knight’s home, but the mob followed them. They surrounded the house of Mr. Knight, raging with anger, and apparently determined to commit violence upon us. Some asked us questions, others threatened us so that we thought it wisdom to leave and go to the house of Newel Knight. There also they followed us, and it was only by exercise of great prudence on our part and reliance on our hHeavenly Father that they were kept from laying violent hands upon us.

Casey Griffiths:
So keep in mind, at this point, Emma has been baptized, but she hasn’t been confirmed a member of the Church yet. And as she’s getting ready to be confirmed, that’s when the constable comes in and sweeps up Joseph Smith and takes him off to the trial. So she can’t get confirmed before Joseph gets dragged to one trial and then to another. And you got to imagine how hard this would be emotionally on Emma. In fact, according to one source, this is Joseph’s lawyer, John S. Reid, during all these trials and all the chaos surrounding it, he said, he stopped in to check on Emma and said her face was, quote, “wet with tears and that her heartstrings were broken with grief.” So she wants to join the Church. She’s trying to join. She gets baptized, but she can’t get confirmed because Joseph keeps getting dragged from trial to trial. Joseph, after the second trial that we mentioned, is over, escapes. And he writes, I was then able to escape them and make my way to safety to my wife’s sister’s house, where I found my wife Emma, awaiting with much anxiety the issue of those ungodly proceedings. And in her company with her, I arrived the next day in safety at my own house in Harmony, Pennsylvania.

Casey Griffiths:
And it’s here in Harmony, in the aftermath of this incredibly stressful time, that Joseph receives Doctrine and Covenants 25 on Emma’s behalf. So this is a concerned spouse, you know, a person who’s trying to do what’s right. But this is her own hometown that’s revolting against Joseph Smith and persecuting him. And this must have been pretty rough for Emma. That’s maybe an insight into why the Lord speaks so tenderly to her in these verses.

Scott Woodward:
Okay, so verse one here. The Lord opens this revelation, as you said, I think really tenderly. He refers to Emma as, Emma Smith, my daughter, which I think is so cool. And then he explains doctrinally why this is so… Remember, this is the voice of Jesus speaking, and Jesus is calling Emma, his daughter. Now he explains why. “For verily I say unto you, all those who receive my gospel,” as Emma had just recently done by way of her baptism, “are sons and daughters in my kingdom.” This is one of the best of a cluster of important verses in scripture that teach that by receiving Christ and his gospel, we are spiritually reborn into the family of Jesus Christ. He actually becomes our Father. We take upon ourselves his name the same way that my kids took upon themselves my name when they were born into my family. Right, they’re Woodwards because I’m their father. We take upon ourselves the name of Jesus as our Father. This is a symbolic moment of him becoming our Father. And then that makes us heirs of his kingdom. We are joint heirs with Christ in his kingdom. And so it’s just a dense little nugget, the Lord when he just says, Emma, you are my daughter.

Casey Griffiths:
There’s plenty of passages where the Lord says, Those who accept the gospel become my sons. But it is just nice to read the phrase daughters in my kingdom in a passage, too, and to recognize that women are seen as his daughters and covenant daughters as well. So, just… I’m glad it’s here.

Scott Woodward:
Scripture tends to speak in the generic male tense, right. Sons meaning sons and daughters. It often talks about fathers, right. Heart of the children turning to their fathers. Fathers means parents, but it’s in the male generic term, right. You’re right. It’s nice, especially with our modern sensibilities, to hear this and to hear him speak tenderly to a sister who just got baptized and call her his daughter. So good. Okay, verse 2, the Lord promises Emma, quote “If thou art faithful and walk in the paths of virtue before me, I will preserve thy life, and thou shalt receive an inheritance in Zion.” Now, this is no idle promise, considering the high maternal mortality rates at the time, Casey. And given the fact that Emma nearly died after giving birth to her first child, that’s remarkable. And we do know that Emma will live to be 74 years old. And so the comes through on this promise with her. “Behold thy sins are forgiven thee,” the Lord continues in verse three, “and thou art an elect lady whom I have called.” What precisely the Lord meant by elect lady here was unclear in 1830. But as we’ll see, 12 years later, at a meeting where Emma is nominated and then voted to be the President of the first President of the first Relief Society in the Church, in Nauvoo, we’re going to see how this comes into play.

Scott Woodward:
I’m going to pause right there for that thought. We’ll tell that story in a minute in the consequences. In Verse 4, the Lord says, “Murmur not because of the things which thou hast not seen,” possibly a reference to the plates, “for they are withheld from thee and from the world, which is wisdom in me in a time to come.” So again, what things the Lord is referring to here is unknown. Was it the angel which some people had seen, but Emma had not? Was it visions or inspired dreams which others had beheld, but Emma didn’t? Maybe. Was it the plates that Joseph had been allowed to show to eight other people? Although this doesn’t seem likely based on a statement we have from Emma, she said, quote, that, “The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment.” She’s talking about the time when she was scribing for Joseph. She says, “The plates were wrapped in a small linen tablecloth, which I had given Joseph to fold them in. I once felt of the plates as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes, thumb the edges of a book.”

Scott Woodward:
She says, “I did not attempt to handle the plates nor uncover them to look at them.” And here’s the line, “I was satisfied that it was the work of God, and therefore, I did not feel it to be necessary to do so.” Credit to Emma, I had often thought that verse 4 was talking about the plates when he says murmur not because of things that you haven’t seen. But here she seems to say, That wasn’t a burden for me. That wasn’t a trial that I didn’t get to see the plates. I thumbed them through the linen cloth. I heard the metallic sound. I was convinced that this was the work of God, and so I didn’t need to see the plates. It was fine.

Casey Griffiths:
I got to admire her, right? I would have peeked. There’s no doubt in my mind that if I had been there, I would have lifted up the cloth, I would have looked, I might have been struck dead. I don’t know what the consequences are if you look at the plates deliberately. But I mean, this is, like I said, the Lord recognizing her great faith, and she acknowledges that later on in her life. But the Lord is also, I think, trying to prepare her for what’s going to happen in verse 5, “Be a comfort unto my servant, Joseph Smith, Jr. thy husband, in his afflictions with consoling words in the spirit of meekness.” When you put this in context with what was happening in Colesville at the time and these trials and all these things that are happening, the Lord has just told Joseph to be patient in afflictions, for thou shalt have many. And it seems like he’s trying to prepare Joseph and Emma to say, Hey, this isn’t going to be the only time that you’re persecuted. This is the beginning of the troubles that you’re having. In fact, later on, she is told to go with him at the time of his going and be unto him a scribe when he doesn’t have another.

Casey Griffiths:
The Lord’s hinting that they are going to have to leave Colesville, and Emma is going to have to leave the family in the home that she grew up in, which she eventually does. You know, she kind of poignantly leaves them behind, and and doesn’t ever see her mother and father after she leaves. In Harmony, right next to the cabin where Joseph and Emma were living, it’s been rebuilt, but there’s a cemetery that’s been there since the time that Joseph and Emma lived there. There are the graves of Emma’s mother and father. And they both died in the late 1830s. Emma leaves this place around fall of 1830 and does not return. And so I think the Lord was trying to prepare her for that also.

Scott Woodward:
I like that. That’s verse 6, right? Thou shalt go with him at the time of his going. And you’re suggesting that that’s going to take her away from Harmony, and she’s never going to see her parents again, actually.

Casey Griffiths:
At the same time, too, don’t get the idea that Emma’s sole job was to just be a comfort to Joseph, just be a help to your husband. The revelation goes on to say this, “Thou shalt be ordained under his hand to expound scriptures to exhort the church.” She’s going to be given an active role to play in the Church as well. And that’s an important thing to point out here, too, that, yes, everybody has an obligation to support their spouse, but Emma, and by extension, women in the Church, are going to be given large roles to expound the scriptures, to exhort the Church, and to write, to be educated. Like this was always going to be part of the Church in the beginning, too.

Scott Woodward:
That’s going to come into play when the Relief Society is founded. That’s going to be 1842, so we’re about 12 years in the future here. That’s going to be the first time that women are placed officially in the Church as officers, as Church officers. And at the very founding of that, right. When the Relief Society is founded, in the founding meeting, Joseph comments on this verse that you just read, the, verse seven, that she should be ordained under Joseph’s hand to expound scriptures. Once he quotes that, he says that Emma is ordained to expound the scriptures to all and to teach the female part of the community, which is very, very cool. So she’s going to be the first Relief Society President, and she will, in 12 years, be placed in a position to, like, fully fulfill verse 7.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, so this comes true in a lot of ways, but most prominently with the Relief Society.

Scott Woodward:
Then verse 8, let’s keep going. The Lord tells Emma that Joseph, quote, “Shall lay his hands upon thee, and thou shalt receive the Holy Ghost.” A welcome assurance given that at their last attempt to do this. Back in Colesville, Joseph was arrested. This is actually going to be fulfilled the next month in August. It sets up Section 27. “And thy time shall be given to writing,” the Lord continues, “and to learning much,” suggesting perhaps that Emma’s work, writing as scribe, will lead to important learning opportunities. “And thou needest not fear, for thy husband shall support thee in the church.” Here’s something interesting. In the original manuscript and printing of this section, it actually uses the word “from the church” rather than “in the church.” What’s the difference? Well, the Lord appears to here be addressing Emma’s anxiety about their family’s temporal well-being. Again, Joseph had just been told in Section 24 that in temporal labors, he would not have strength. That’s a potentially stressful statement for Joseph’s wife, who depends upon his livelihood.

Casey Griffiths:
Maybe even more stressful for her than it was for him, you know, because women aren’t expected to work outside the home or provide for themselves. So is my husband going to continually be dragged dragged from court case to court case? If so, are we going to starve to death? Is a genuine concern she would have had.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, totally. So back in Section 24, in verse 3 of that section, the Lord told Joseph that at that time, the Church members in Colesville, Fayette, and Manchester would support him as he does the Lord’s work. Now here in verse 9, the Lord assures Emma that Joseph shall support thee in the Church or from the Church, from the Church funds donated by members to support Joseph and his family. So some reassurance, that’s hopefully for Emma here, that your family is going to be taken care of by the Church. Joseph’s calling, again, is not to launch successful business ventures. Rather, his calling is as a revelator unto the Church, quote, “that all things might be revealed unto them according to their faith.” He says to Emma. So consequently, Emma and her family may need to get accustomed to the very modest standard of living that will likely accompany the Church-supported livelihood of her husband. And on this theme, the Lord further counsels Emma. He says, quote, “Thou shalt lay aside the things of this world and seek for the things of a better.” Again, adjusting some expectations like he did with Joseph in Section 24, he’s now doing with Emma in Section 25 about how they might think about their livelihood and how they might think about being temporarily sustained.

Casey Griffiths:
So she’s not just given sort of vague instructions to expound the Church and to give your time to writing. She’s given specific assignments as well. Verse 11, “It shall be given thee to make a selection of sacred hymns to be had in my Church.” The rationale for this, the Lord says, is that “my soul delighteth in the song of the heart, yea, the song of the righteous is a prayer unto me, which shall be answered with a blessing upon their heads.” And this is something that has tremendous consequences for the Church. Emma does compile the first hymn book, which is published in 1835. She’s helped by W. W. Phelps and a bunch of other Church members, but she publishes a collection of sacred hymns for the Church of the Latter-day Saints, which you can find on the Joseph Smith Papers project site. And I don’t think anybody’s going to argue that music is an important part of our worship and that Emma plays a big role in setting up the hymnody, the hymns that we use as a Church.

Scott Woodward:
That’s huge. We’re just now at the recording of this episode in the midst of the Church releasing more new hymns. Right, we’re kind of in the midst of reconstituting the hymnbook, if we could say it that way. And it’s gone through a couple of iterations, but there still are in all the versions of the hymnal, there are still hymns that have persisted that were first put in our hymnal by Emma. Which is pretty awesome.

Casey Griffiths:
Redeemer of Israel, the Spirit of God, Like a Fire Is Burning. These are all in the first hymn book. And I don’t think you need to go any further than the debate surrounding the hymns that show how emotionally involved they are. I’ve had people say they need to take out Praise to the Man, and other people say, If they take out Praise to the Man, you know, I’m going to be really upset. Just goes to so, how much music is part of us connecting and worshiping with God.

Scott Woodward:
Well, the Lord now concludes in verses 13 through 16 by giving Emma some universally applicable counsel. He says, “Wherefore, lift up thy heart and rejoice, and cleave unto the covenants which thou hast made.” Again, just barely. She just got baptized. “Continue in the spirit of meekness, and beware of pride. Let thy soul delight in thy husband, and the glory which shall come upon him.” And finally, he says, “Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive, and except thou do this, where I am, you cannot come. And verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my voice unto all. Amen.” That’s where that universal applicability comes in. There are nuggets in here that are applicable to all. Is it that we should all write a hymn and compile a hymn? No. But these last couple of verses about keeping your covenants, being meek, beware of pride, glory in your spouse, keep God’s commandments. Like these are powerful little nuggets the Lord says, not just applicable to Emma, but to all. Shall we dig into some controversies?

Casey Griffiths:
Let’s dig into it.

Scott Woodward:
The word ordain, right? The Lord said, verse 7, “Thou shalt be ordained under his hand to expound scriptures.” What do you want to say about the word ordain here? Is this a priesthood word in Joseph’s day or what’s going on?

Casey Griffiths:
A lot of people have made a lot of fuss over the use of the word ordain in that verse because it’s referring to a woman. And today, we typically use ordain only in the context of a young man being ordained to an office in the priesthood. When we’re talking about women, we usually use the language set apart. And I don’t know the history of how all that developed, but I don’t think that the use of the word ordain here was meant specifically to refer to the priesthood offices that men received. Just referring to an 1828 dictionary from the time: ordain, according to my handy-dandy 1828 dictionary, meant “properly to set or to establish in a particular office or order, hence to invest with a ministerial function or sacerdotal power to introduce and establish or settle in the pastoral office with the customary forms and solemnities.” So it’s really broad and could be used in the same way that we use the word setting apart today. You know, a young woman is set apart as an officer in her young woman’s class, or a woman in the ward is set apart as the Relief Society President. I think ordain would have been used for both of those today, where it seems like we have split them out. They were probably interchangeable.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. Well, and we actually know from Eliza R. Snow, she uses that exact language about Emma Smith being set apart as the Relief Society President with her counselors. Let me read from Eliza R. Snow. Listen to this language, which might sound odd to our modern ears, but this was just totally normal speak for them. She said, quote, “The Female Relief Society of Nauvoo was organized with a presidentess”, that’s what she calls Emma, “who chose two counselors. These were ordained and set apart by the priesthood.” Ordained and set apart. Interchangeable. She’s using both of those phrases. By the priesthood. John Taylor was the one that did this. So by a member of the priesthood, they would say back then, “this quorum was fully authorized to appoint such officers, committees, and assistance as were requisite from time to time as circumstances might demand.” So the presidency of the Relief Society was called a quorum.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. And that’s a word we usually only associate with priesthood today. How does the word quorum pop up in a discussion of Relief Society?

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, there it is. They were a quorum. If you look up quorum in the 1828 dictionary, it’s “a number of officers or members, as is competent by law or constitution to transact business.” In other words, it’s enough people to make decisions that are binding, like official decisions, right. So a quorum in the Relief Society was the presidency who was sufficient to make decisions that were binding on the Relief Society. So they’re using these words, which, like you said, I don’t know either exactly when these words start to become associated exclusively with priesthood in our Church, but they do. And so now it feels a little bit odd to our ears when we hear that Emma is going to be ordained or that the Relief Society presidency was a quorum who were ordained. But so it was. These are not priesthood-only terms back in the 1830s and 40s.

Casey Griffiths:
But I will say we maybe overlook how progressive this section is, too, in an era when people would still quote Paul and say, Women should not be permitted to speak in church. Emma is being told she’s not only going to speak in church, she’s going to expound the scriptures and exhort the Saints and give her time to a lot of writing. And she’s given a specific, like, scholarly assignment to collect hymns and put them together. This does set the stage that the Church is going to actively involve women. Women are always permitted to vote, to partake and participate in the law of common consent. It does set us up for this idea that women aren’t going to be passive in the Church. They’re going to be active. They’re going to play a big role.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah this is kind of seeding the ground, isn’t it? It seeds the ground, which, like we said, 12 years later is going to start to really flourish in the relief society. And then that’s going to become the pattern for all other auxiliaries of the Church, with primary, Sunday school, young women’s, young men’s. This is going to be huge. So this is seeding the ground for full participation of women, which you said is, at this time, maybe a little progressive.

Casey Griffiths:
Maybe a little radical, right?

Scott Woodward:
Leading the pack here, yeah, so. Okay, let’s do another controversy. The controversy here is Emma Smith, Casey.

Casey Griffiths:
It’s just Emma Smith, right?

Scott Woodward:
Emma, yeah. She… To bring up Emma in some circles conjures up different reactions, different feelings. Why is there such a wide array of feelings about Emma within our Church?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. And it feels like a lot of people, male and female, have intense feelings about Emma Smith, and it’s gone in several directions over the course of the history of the Church. I mean, Emma did not travel West with the Saints. After Joseph dies, she stays in Nauvoo. She raises her family there. Her sons become the leaders of the Reorganized Church, which will eventually become Community of Christ. And so for a long time, you would walk into a Relief Society room and see pictures of all the former presidents there except for Emma Smith. And a lot of people didn’t like Emma Smith, and some Church leaders said some pretty intense things about Emma Smith.

Scott Woodward:
All of this because she stays back in Nauvoo when the Church comes West, and they don’t want to be too positive about her because now there’s a rival church that has been organized called the RLDS Church. And so to say positivity about Emma would be maybe in some ways to show favor toward the church that she’s endorsing because her son is a president of it. Do you think that’s all embroiled in this? Is that what’s happening here?

Casey Griffiths:
That’s definitely part of it. It seems like the rhetoric has kind of ratcheted up when the Reorganized Church is launched, and they’re genuinely worried about this rival movement kind of swooping in. The Reorganized Church was saying that plural marriage was wrong. A lot of them were saying, Joseph Smith never practiced plural marriage. Emma, in her last interview makes a statement that’s the equivalent of that, and that’s controversial, too. Even to this day, it’s still controversial.

Scott Woodward:
Because let’s just say it, like, some of Joseph Smith’s plural wives were in Utah when Emma was saying that he didn’t practice plural marriage over in Nauvoo. And so now the Church members are starting to feel like maybe she’s a liar. She’s telling things that are only helping the narrative of the RLDS Church when she knows better. There’s those kind of feelings that are stewing in Utah contra what’s happening over in Nauvoo with Emma and this new church, right? Something like that.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, that’s a big part of it. But I will say that there’s been an interesting shift, I would say, in the last 50 years in the Church, where some descendants of Emma Smith have joined the Church, people like Gracia Jones, who’s wonderful. Gracia actually emailed me a couple of weeks ago with a few questions about the podcast. And there’s been a turn to where Emma was represented not as this bad figure, but as this angelic figure. And sometimes I wonder if we maybe put her on too high a pedestal when we were there. We’ve got to find somewhere in the middle between she’s the worst and she’s the best and she’s perfect because she was just a human being. And again, we’ve got a discussion coming up with Jenny Reeder, who wrote a book about Emma Smith and had to sort through a lot of these feelings. So maybe we can put off final conclusions on Emma Smith till then and just say our relationship with Emma Smith is complicated, and it is for a lot of reasons. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t honor her for everything she did for the Restoration. She’s just a remarkable person by any measure.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, 100%. I can see because it’s human nature to want to vilify people that are outside or maybe threatening to your group. And it seems like the RLDS Church was a legitimate threat because it was Joseph Smith’s son who was the president of that church. It was a threat to Church members over in Utah. So I can see just the humanness, like, kind of seeding, you know, animosity toward group, and then Emma is all wrapped up in that and then plural marriage. Like I think they had, if we can say, a reason to vilify Emma. We have no such reason in the modern Church, right, like. I think maybe that accounts for we’ve gotten so positive toward her. Like you said, maybe too far, almost like Saint Emma, you know. But I think with research and the Joseph Smith papers and great scholarship and Jenny Reeder’s book, you mentioned we’re going to interview her. That interview is coming out in just a couple of days. I think we can see Emma as a complicated figure like all of us, who’s a mix of incredible strength and virtue and power, as well as weakness and things that she struggled with. And, I mean, I think that’s the most realistic picture of Emma.

Scott Woodward:
She’s marvelous, and she’s frustrating, and she has incredible virtues, and she’s also got a little temper, and she’s got a beef with Brigham, and yet she is incredibly generous and so good. And so, yeah, I think just seeing her in that more realistic light is probably best. In fact, here’s a tribute to Emma from Joseph Smith’s mother, who also, by the way, she stays behind. She will not come West because of her age and her health. She says this about Emma, quote, “I have never a woman in my life who would endure every species of fatigue and hardship from month to month and from year to year with that unflinching courage, zeal, and patience which she has always done. For I know that which she has had to endure, that she has been tossed upon the ocean of uncertainty, that she has breasted the storm of persecution and buffeted the rage of men and devils until she has been swallowed up in a sea of trouble which would have borne down almost any other woman.” It’s just like, oh.

Casey Griffiths:
Let me read the statement Joseph Smith makes about her, too. Near the end of his life, this is what Joseph Smith writes about Emma. He says, “With what unspeakable delight and what transports of joy swelled my bosom when I took by the hand on that night my beloved Emma, she that was my wife, even the wife of my youth, and the choice of my heart. Many were the reverberations of my mind when I contemplated for a moment the many scenes we had been called to pass through, the fatigues and the toils, the sorrows and sufferings, and the joys and consolations from time to time had strewed our path and crowned our board. Oh, what a co-mingling of thought filled my mind for the moment. Again, she is here, even in the seventh trouble, undaunted, firm, and unwavering, unchangeable, affectionate Emma.”

Scott Woodward:
Really nice tribute.

Casey Griffiths:
Again, it’s okay if you have complicated feelings about Emma. There’s a lot surrounding her, all the issues linked to plural marriage and her not coming West. Again, we’ll sort through some of these with an expert, with Jenny Reeder. But it’s also imperative on us that we make Emma Smith a full figure, like she is a person and not a caricature of wickedness or righteousness. And the more I learn about her, the more I’m impressed with her. But she could also be kind of frustrating, too. I’ll be honest.

Scott Woodward:
Consequences of Section 25. A couple. You mentioned the hymnbook. I think that’s had incredible consequences. And then, secondly, the Relief Society. When the Relief Society was organized, according to the meeting minutes of that meeting, Joseph Smith actually stood up and read Doctrine and Covenants 25 to Emma Smith in front of the sisters from the Book of Doctrine and Covenants. And he stated that she was ordained at that time that the revelation was given to expound the scriptures to all and to teach the female part of the community. And his own journal records that he gave much instruction. He read some New Testament, Doctrine and Covenants, concerning the elect lady, and he showed that the elect meant to be elected to a certain work, and that the revelation, Section 25, was then fulfilled by Sister Emma’s election to the presidency of the society, she having previously been ordained to expound the scriptures. So in Joseph Smith’s mind, the outcome of Section 25 was fully fulfilled in Emma’s call to be the president of the Relief Society. Now, her election was complete, right, and so. That phrase is verse 3, the elect lady is now used for her. In fact, elect lady is going to kind of become a title for the next couple of Relief Society presidents.

Scott Woodward:
They’ll talk about the president of the Relief Society as the Elect Lady. Who’s the elect lady? It’s Eliza R. Snow. She was ordained as the Elect Lady, and so on, and so on. That’s probably the biggest consequence to come out of this.

Casey Griffiths:
I’ll add, too, that in the same minute book of the Relief Society, after Joseph reads Section 25, he says, quote, “Not Emma alone, but others may attain the same blessings.” Meaning Section 25 broadens in Joseph Smith’s perspective to not just be a revelation for Emma, but a revelation for women, generally in the Church. Most revelations are gender-neutral. They don’t seem to be aimed specifically at men or women, just the children of God. But this is a special one, particularly for the women of the Church to study and cherish.

Scott Woodward:
Okay, real quick, let’s do section 26. It’s only two verses, Casey, but any background you want to give us before we drop into those two verses?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. So Section 26, again, is received around this kind of crazy, topsy-turvy time when Joseph and Emma are worried about their temporal well-being. Are they going to be able to be supported by the Church? Are they going to starve to death? Joseph spending a ton of time traveling between the different branches of the Church in New York and Pennsylvania, which are all a fair distance from each other. And at the time, they’re living on this little 13 acre plot of land that they asked if they could purchase from Emma’s father, Isaac Hale. And because of this pressing responsibility that Joseph has to the new Church, Joseph was unable to devote a lot of time to farming the land. And Isaac Hale apparently began putting pressure on Joseph to pay the $200 he promised for the land. So Joseph was eventually able to pay off the debt in a month following the revelation, though Isaac remained skeptical of his son-in-law’s prophetic calling and ability to take care of his daughter. The revelation focuses on two things. One is to instruct Joseph to continue his labors among the Saints, but to also focus on his temporal labors as well. But it introduces an idea here that still remains in the Church and that is very timeless.

Casey Griffiths:
So you’ve got some timely things, take care of your family. Don’t let your father-in-law evict you, along with a concept that still gets used, I would say, on a regular basis in the Church, practically every Sunday.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, called common consent. Yeah, so you did the context and you’re already well into the content. Maybe just two things I would add. Right there in verse one, the Lord says, “Behold, I say unto you that you shall let your time be devoted to the studying of the scriptures.” Here’s another little allusion to Joseph’s next scriptural project, the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. “And to preaching and confirming the Church at Colesville,” he goes on, “and performing your labors on the land,” like you said, “such as is required until next conference,” et cetera. Then verse 2, it just drops almost in passing, “And all things shall be done by common consent in the Church. By much prayer in faith for all things you shall receive by faith. Amen.” Casey, what is common consent?

Casey Griffiths:
Well, I mean, probably the way most people are familiar with it is the whole, all those in favor may signify by raising the right-hand that happens in pretty much every sacrament meeting in the Church.

Scott Woodward:
So it’s this idea of voting or confirming by uplifted hand?

Casey Griffiths:
I think we don’t use the word voting very often, but in the early Church, I think they might have been okay with that term. We tend to use the term sustaining? Partially because it’s not an election. Right, usually, the people have already been called and discussed by Church leaders, and we’re just basically saying we’ll sustain them. Let me give you a couple of quotes here. Joseph F. Smith, this is the son of Hyrum Smith, President of the Church, said, “It is an important duty resting upon the Saints who sustain the authorities of the Church to do so not only by lifting of the hand, the mere form, but in deed and truth.” So common consent can also extend to us not just raising our hand and saying, Yeah, this is okay with me. I have no problems in deed and truth. He’s saying, accepting their teachings, following their teachings, doing the best we can to obey what they have to say.

Scott Woodward:
When I sustain somebody in a calling? The following have been called to teach in primary. Am I saying I’m going to follow their teachings? Am I saying that doesn’t seem to fit in that case, right? What are we saying? We will lend our influence to helping them succeed in whatever way, or tell me, think through that next time I do that in sacrament meeting. What am I actually saying, Casey? Because I like what you’re saying. I think about the prophets, I’m going to follow their teachings. But when I do this for people in my ward, what am I saying?

Casey Griffiths:
You make an interesting point that we do this for the highest offices in the Church and the lowest offices in the Church. You might do this for somebody who’s been called to lead the nursery, but you also do it for the President of the Church, sustaining his prophet, seer, and revelator. Maybe another quote. This is George Albert Smith, President of the Church. He said, “the obligation that we make when we raise our hands is a most sacred one. It does not mean that we will go quietly on our way and be willing that the prophet of the Lord shall direct this work, but it means that we will stand behind him, we will pray for him, we will defend his good name, and we will strive to carry out his instructions as the Lord shall direct.” Now, that obviously applies a little bit more to the higher leadership of the Church. But I would say that the instruction he says there that we will stand behind him, we’ll pray for him, we’ll defend him, could apply to any calling within the Church, that we’re going to stand by them, that we’re going to help them, that, you know, if they’re doing the best that they can, we’ll do what we can to defend them and help them.

Casey Griffiths:
If they’re serving as a leader over us, we’ll follow their instructions. That’s part of the obligation we make when we raise our hand as well.

Scott Woodward:
Here’s another one from President Russell M. Nelson. He explained, this is before he was the Church president, back in 2014, there’s a talk called Sustaining the Prophets, so. He says, quote, “When we sustain prophets and other leaders, we invoke the law of common consent.” The phrase first used right here in Section 26 of the Doctrine and Covenants. “Our sustaining of prophets is a personal commitment that we will do our utmost to uphold their prophetic priorities,” I like that phrase. “Our sustaining is an oath-like indication that we will recognize their calling as a prophet to be legitimate and binding upon us.” So it seems like it has much more weight and emphasis in terms of general teachings regarding our sustaining of, like, the leaders of the Church, the President, Quorum of the Twelve. Yet, as we mentioned, we do this every Sunday with local callings, not even our leaders, but people who are lateral to us, who are serving in Sunday school or young women’s or wherever. And I think the spirit of that is we will do our best, if it’s in our influence, to do so, to help you succeed in what you’ve been called by the Lord to do, something like that.

Casey Griffiths:
I think that’s fair. Any controversies with this section that we want to cover? Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
Sustained. What does it mean to sustain? Well, more on the other side of the question. Is it ever okay to disagree with a Church leader? I hear this in the circles I run with, other religious educators, and we’re teaching college kids who are thinking for themselves and doing lots of important development right now. The question comes up, I mean, not every day, but regular. Is it okay to disagree? What I’d say is just be careful to never undermine the influence of the prophets. Be patient. History has taught us, the history of our Church, that if there are errors in any current policies, if there’s a false doctrine that’s currently being taught, and there have been bad policies, and there have been false doctrines. These things have a way of working themselves out without us picketing, without us doing anything that would cause embarrassment to Church leaders. If we’ve learned anything from our history, we know that these things have a way of working and of being smoothed over, of being identified by those who’s calling it is to identify them and to course correct. That’s not our position as those that are not called to be their peers or to be over them.

Scott Woodward:
I just say, yeah, of course, it’s okay to think for yourself. Of course, it’s okay to come to your own opinions. But if you feel like you’re clashing with something that’s officially taught or clashing with an official policy, just be mature and careful and kind and patient about that. Just don’t do anything that would embarrass the prophets or undermine their influences.

Casey Griffiths:
There were a few times, several years ago, when they were doing sustainings in general conference, and I remember someone shouting their opposition, or one case, someone shouting a slogan, right? It was difficult to hear them. I was watching it on TV. It became common practice for the leaders of the Church to say, If you have concerns, please share them with your local bishop or state president. That’s one thing I would say is, yeah, if you felt like if there was something inappropriate happening or you felt like someone wasn’t worthy to serve in a calling, maybe that would be a time when it would be appropriate to raise your hand in opposition. But if it’s just, I don’t think they’re the best person for the job or I don’t like them personally, that’s probably not the time to raise your hand. The Lord calls all kinds of people the different callings, and sometimes really unexpected ones. But I’ve always been amazed at how those callings seem to bring out the best in a person and help them. I was on a hike I don’t know what Scott. I was doing the sustaining. When I said any opposed, I remember this 10-year-old kid raised his hand.

Casey Griffiths:
I had to pause and say, Well, maybe you can come and speak with us after the meeting then. I took the kid aside after the meeting and said, Hey, so why did you raise your hand? And he just said, I just wanted to see what would happen if I did.

Scott Woodward:
Just testing the waters.

Casey Griffiths:
Just testing the waters. He was a bold young man. And that’s okay. But I would say, don’t do that. Sustain people when you can. But if you have a really good reason, if there was something that the leaders needed to be aware of, that might be an appropriate time to express opposition. But again, we’re not voting The Lord’s already called these people by revelation. We’re sustaining, which means we’re upholding them, we’re supporting them. We’re saying, yeah, I’ll help them out. I’ll help them be successful.

Scott Woodward:
Constance Consequences from Section 26. I think just, again, JST is starting to happen here. Joseph Smith Translation and law of common consent.

Casey Griffiths:
Which let’s don’t undersell the law of common consent. There’s a general conference coming up, and the law of common consent will be on full display there, and we see it every Sunday. It’s not something that we should just take for granted. You’ve heard that old J. Golden Kimball’s story where he was doing sustainings in a conference in Nephi, Utah, and he noticed that everybody was just kind of raising their hands without any thought or forethought. He got up and said, It is proposed that we move Mount Nebo to where Utah Lake is, and Utah Lake to where Mount Nebo is, all those in favor. And the crowd sustained him, and he paused and said, Well, you moved it there. Now, what are you going to do with it? So I would say, don’t sleep through this part of Church and don’t miss this part of Church, because I’ve been there when those hands have been raised, and it really was a powerful moment for me to say, Yeah, everybody here is saying that they’ve got my back and they’re going to help me to try and be successful.

Scott Woodward:
Love it. Well, thank you, Casey. That was a fun run through of Sections 23 through 26. Next week, Section 27 and 28. Got some high drama ahead.

Casey Griffiths:
Definitely something to look forward to, the first ecclesiastical crisis in the Church. And so I’m looking forward to that.

Scott Woodward:
Okay, we’ll see you then.

Casey Griffiths:
Until then.