Scott Woodward: Welcome to Church History Matters Come, Follow Me Edition, where we are systematically diving into every section of the Doctrine and Covenants throughout the year 2025. We have a lot to talk about today, so let’s get into it. Hello, Casey.

Casey Griffiths: Here we are again, another week in the Doctrine and Covenants. And I say this every time, but I’m excited. But this time, it’s because we’re meeting one of the seminal figures of early Church history. This block is Doctrine and Covenants 6–9, and this is where we meet Oliver Cowdery. Does he get enough credit for everything that he did?

Scott Woodward: Seriously. And, and this is a man who is, like, household name, you know, in Church history now. It’s Joseph Smith, Emma Smith. Then where do you go? Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris. I mean, he’s one of the, the top names, and we are meeting him today, which is exciting.

Casey Griffiths: He really is. I think, you know, Oliver is excommunicated in 1838, but he comes back in 1848, a decade later. I think if he hadn’t, you know, taken a little walk about, his name would be there with, you know, Brigham Young and John Taylor and other luminaries of the Restoration. He’d probably be even more well known than he is right now. But as it is, this is where he bursts onto the scene of the coming forth the Book of Mormon.

Scott Woodward: And makes an incredible contribution right away. I mean, without Oliver Cowdery, how do we get the Book of Mormon here? I don’t know. Joseph was struggling. He’d burned through a few scribes. He’d lost some manuscript pages. And now, once he gets the gift back, he’s ready to go, but he needs a scribe. And it just so happens that when he needed a scribe is when the scribe was ready, and they’re going to come together in a pretty awesome way, which we’re going to tell the story today. In fact, do you just want to like get us into this? What, where should we start with the Oliver Cowdery story?

Casey Griffiths: I mean, let’s start with Section 6, because these sections, the other thing that’s great about them is it’s kind of like a seminar on revelation, personal revelation, because Oliver shows up and then he has to be kind of mentored into the prophetic process that Joseph Smith has been engaged in since, you know, 1820, 1823. And so these sections are especially valuable in teaching the principles of personal revelation as well. So let’s start with Section 6. This is where Oliver shows up. Let me give you some context. So Oliver is about 22 when he meets Joseph Smith. He is the school teacher in Palmyra. So you remember during this time, there’s a little bit of geographic separation. Joseph Smith’s family is living in Palmyra, which is in upstate New York. Joseph has taken the plates and moved down to Emma Smith’s hometown, Harmony, Pennsylvania, which is quite a ways away. And Oliver shows up and boards with the Smiths in Palmyra, so he’s living with them.

Scott Woodward: What does that mean, to board with the Smiths? I mean, that’s a concept that we don’t typically do today. What does that mean?

Casey Griffiths: Basically, he had contracted to be the school teacher in Palmyra that school year, and the Smiths agree to take him into their home and take care of him. And it’s over the course of that school year, which just so happens to coincide with Joseph Smith’s time of difficulty. He loses the manuscript in the summer. However, he gets the interpreters back, but sort of goes into this funk, it seems like, where he doesn’t do a lot of translation from September until April when Oliver shows up. And during this time, Oliver is back in Palmyra, and the Smiths are guarded at first. They don’t really want to talk about it. And when Oliver starts to hear from other people in the town about Joseph Smith, Jr. and the plates and all these wild stories, he’s the one who goes to them. In fact, he first approaches Joseph Smith’s father and meets a little bit of resistance. But as the weeks pass, the Smiths come to trust Oliver, and they open up. They share a little bit about Joseph and where he was and why people in Palmyra talk about him the way that they do. And according to Lucy Mack Smith, Oliver becomes sort of obsessed with this idea. She writes that Oliver became, quote, “So entirely absorbed in the subject of the record that it seemed impossible for him to think or converse about anything else.” So even before he’s met Joseph Smith, Oliver is focused on this, and it seems to kind of capture his imagination. And it’s during this time, there are several sources that indicate that while he’s in Palmyra with the Smiths, he has some kind of spiritual prompting to go and act as an assistant, a scribe, whatever, with Joseph Smith. For instance, one source says, “He told Father and Mother Smith, I’ve made it the subject of prayer, and I firmly believe that it is the will of the Lord that I should go to visit Joseph down in Pennsylvania and that there is a work for me to do in this thing. He told Father Smith that it had been put into his heart that he would have the privilege of writing for Joseph.” And he said, “This thought had been working in my very bones insomuch that I cannot for a moment get rid of it.”

Scott Woodward: This is the same time where he made this a matter of, like, private personal prayer, right, where he privately cries to the Lord one evening during this time, right. And he’s asking God, one on one here, to let him know the truth of the things he’s been hearing from the Smiths. And as he did so, he felt a really profound sense of peace.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, and that’s referenced in Section 6, but it may have been something more, too, than just this profound sense of peace. In Joseph Smith’s 1832 history, this is how he gives Oliver’s backstory. Joseph wrote, “The Lord showed unto Oliver the plate in a vision and also the truth of the work. Therefore, he was desirous to come and write for me to translate.” And so that’s the language that Joseph Smith uses in his 1832 history. So it might be more than we anticipate, though Section 6 makes reference to something that doesn’t sound quite as big as that. So it’s possible maybe this was a vision that happened later on, or it’s, it’s a vision that Oliver records or tells Joseph Smith a little bit later. But the bottom line is by the end of the school year, and school years back then, were still like autumn to spring, Oliver is ready to go. And he makes the journey from Palmyra down to Harmony, Pennsylvania, where Joseph Smith is living alongside Samuel Smith, Joseph’s younger brother. They leave at the end of March. Meanwhile, Joseph Smith has been sporadically translating, but really having significant struggles. Maybe it was a crisis of confidence. It could have been something as simple as he didn’t have a lot of paper or anything like that, but he’s asking for a scribe. Joseph, records that on April 2nd, he prayed for the Lord to send a scribe as he was previously promised would happen and was informed that one would soon be forthcoming. And then three days later, on April5h, that’s the date that Oliver gives in an 1834 history, Oliver arrives with his, with Joseph’s brother Samuel to his home and tells him why he’s come, and Joseph Smith is gratified, basically, like, Oh, okay. And it seems like they hit it off. And, you know, for the next few years, Joseph and Oliver, Butch and Sundance. They’re the twin heroes of the Restoration, the first and second elder of the Church. They’re called in Section 20. Because he gets there on the5h, and on the 7th, according to Oliver, they start translating. And we’re going to go into more depth with this with a guest that we’re having on. But they get the whole Book of Mormon, as we know it, translated in about three months time. So April, May, and June. They, they translate the entire Book of Mormon as we’re now currently aware of it.

Scott Woodward: They begin on April 7th, and they’re done by end of June. We don’t know the exact date, but that fact becomes more and more profound the more and more we get into the complexity of the Book of Mormon itself. And, yeah, I’m excited. We’re going to have a guest on. It should be two days after this video releases. We will have a guest. Should we announce who it is, Casey?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, it’s going to be Jack Welch.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, I, I can’t believe our, our good friend Jack Welch is going to take the time to be with us lowly…

Casey Griffiths: Founder of Scripture Central.

Scott Woodward: He is one of the experts. I think he’s the world’s expert on the timing of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. I don’t know anyone who’s done richer, deeper scholarship than our friend Jack Welch. So we look forward to that. Look for that video in two days time from the release of this video.

Casey Griffiths: And so, I mean, that’s really exciting because, like you said, he has done some incredible scholarship on this. And this is when we say miracles still happen in our day. The coming forth of the Book of Mormon is a miracle. When you start to look at the timing of how fast it happened, it happens fast. So these are our sections on translation, and probably the best sources in the Doctrine and Covenants to understand the process of translation, which is a huge overlap with the process of revelation. And there’s a lot here we can learn. For instance, D&C 6, we don’t know the, the precise date, but it’s probably right around the time that Oliver shows up because the language in D&C 6 is that of calling someone to the work. And if they show up on the 5th, and then by the 7th, they’re translating, I would guess somewhere in that window is where Doctrine and Covenants 6 is, is received.

Scott Woodward: A couple of days after they’ve started the work, it sounds like, right? Not too long into it, yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Not too long into it because the language here is that of a calling. Like, Oliver, you’re on the team now. Here’s what I need you to do. Let’s get to it. So there’s the context. Let’s get into the content.

Scott Woodward: A couple of days have gone by, at least, because some of the content of Section 6 references Oliver having seen Joseph do some translation. So it looks like he’s seen a little bit of this, right. And so. whatever exactly his question was, we’re not sure, but it does seem to be responding to some lingering questions, doubts, and fears that Oliver had been quietly harboring but had not yet expressed to Joseph Smith. So yeah, let’s let’s dive in now and check out what the Lord says to Oliver. So Section 6 opens with a biblically-drenched word picture in the first five verses, similar to D&C 4, as we talked about in a previous episode, drawing on phrases from the books of Isaiah, Hebrews, John, Revelation, Matthew, and again, framing this season in time as on the brink of the coming forth of God’s marvelous work, which itself was primed to bring about an abundant harvest of souls through those who are willing to help in the reaping. And so like you said, Oliver is being called to the here in the first five verses. Then starting in verse 6, the Lord begins to directly address some of Oliver’s unspoken questions, some of his doubts, some of his fears. The Lord first directs Oliver to keep his commandments and to “seek to bring forth and establish the cause of Zion.” Verse 6. Counsel given, perhaps in response to an unexpressed question about God’s will and priorities for Oliver Cowdery’s life. And then next, the Lord directs Oliver to “seek not for riches, but for the wisdom of God,” and is told that “he that hath eternal life is rich.” Perhaps responding to a lingering fear of Oliver’s that maybe getting too involved with Joseph Smith might result in a lack of professional and financial success. We’re not sure exactly why the Lord goes here. I’m spitballing here, but perhaps. And then on this theme, the Lord assures Oliver that his righteous desires will be granted. And if he desires, he will “be the means of doing much good in this generation.” And that for declaring repentance and assisting in this latter day work, he will be justly compensated by the Lord’s blessing. And then we go to verses 10 through 24, Casey. So in verses 10 through 24, we sense that Oliver was inclined to doubt his own spiritual experiences and gifts.

Casey Griffiths: Well, and I mean in context, too, Oliver is, is more well-educated than Joseph Smith by quite a bit, right?

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And so this educated person who’s a school teacher coming to this uneducated farmer who has these prophetic gifts may have been a barrier for Oliver. Like there are some indications that Oliver struggled with, you know, thinking, I’m intellectually superior to this guy. I’m more educated than he is.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. So he not only had doubts, perhaps, about his own spiritual experiences, but he’s also doubting to some degree the authenticity of Joseph Smith’s translation ability, we could say, and his methodology. So on the one hand, could Oliver Cowdery trust his own feelings and experiences? On the other hand, could he trust the validity of what he was seeing this less educated 23-year-old Joseph Smith do day after day as he translated by looking at the Nephite interpreters placed at the bottom of his hat and then dictating to Oliver hour after hour while the plates lay covered nearby. Okay, that’s the scene we got to put in our heads, is that Joseph is looking at the seer stones and Oliver is across the table dictating words that Joseph says while he’s just looking at the stones. You can see how maybe Oliver is thinking, Is this legit? Is this authentic? Is this actually the voice and the mind and the will of God? This is unprecedented. There’s nothing quite like this. There’s no translation before or since that I’ve ever heard of, and I’m sure that Oliver Cowdery had ever heard of, that operates like this. In verses 10 through 15, the Lord reassures Oliver that he can trust his own spiritual impressions, that he indeed has a gift, a sacred gift himself, of revelation, and that by righteously exercising this gift, God’s mysteries will be made known to him. People will be convinced of the error of their ways, God say, and if he, Oliver, holds out faithful to the end, he will receive God’s greatest gift, which is the gift of salvation. So a lot of reassurance here for Oliver. So then to, to help Oliver recognize the operations of his own budding kind of revelatory gift, the Lord reminds him that as often as he has inquired of God, he’s received instructions from God’s Spirit. Like look at verse 15, where the Lord says, “Behold, thou knowest that thou hast inquired of me, and I did enlighten thy mind. And now I tell thee these things that thou mayest know, that thou hast been enlightened by the Spirit of truth.” That’s interesting, right? So the Lord is letting him know, like, the feelings you’ve had and the, the enlightenment in your mind, that’s how my Spirit works. This is the spirit of truth. And then the Lord goes on to say in verse 16 and 17, that the fact that he had just told Oliver details about the thoughts and intents of his heart, which nobody else but he and God alone knew, is a witness that the words Oliver has been writing from Joseph’s dictation are true. The Lord says, “I tell thee these things as a witness unto thee—that the words or the work which thou has been writing are true.” In other words, Oliver should consider that both the words of the revelation to Oliver that he’s receiving at this time and the words of the Book of Mormon translation are coming from the same young seer looking at the same seer stones. This is how the Lord is authenticating to Oliver Cowdery that this gift you’re watching Joseph Smith use is true. Otherwise, how could I have just told you something that only you and me know, and Joseph does not, which is kind of a cool move there, honestly. Anything you want to say about that?

Casey Griffiths: Just that this is instructive in revelation too, right? The Lord’s telling Oliver things that only the two of them know; this is personal revelation. Even though this is canonized in the scriptures, which means it’s meant for the whole Church, we need to recognize that these early revelations before there is a Church are really personal. And I think another big lesson that you can pull from these verses, let me, let me quote verses 22 and 23. “Verily, verily, verily, I say unto to you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things. Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?” I wonder if, you know, part of the lesson here, too, is you have to learn to recognize revelation when it comes. Because the whole point of this revelation is to tell Oliver he’s been called to the work, and the Lord is basically saying, I already gave you an answer to this. Do you remember when I spoke peace to your mind? But Oliver was at the point where he just didn’t quite know, you know, what revelation was like or what to expect. And sometimes the first lesson that we have to learn or we have to teach people is to say, Hey, here’s some ways that God can speak to you. It’s not always going to be a pillar of light or an angelic being. It could be something as simple and as sweet as just feeling peace with yourself.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, and this did strike a chord with Oliver. We know that shortly after this revelation was received, Oliver actually writes a letter to his friend David Whitmer, who lived up in Fayette, New York. David recounted in his own history, he said, “Soon after Oliver’s arrival in Harmony, he wrote to me and said that Joseph had inquired of the Lord concerning him and had told him secrets of his life that he knew could not be known to any person but himself in any other way than by revelation from the Almighty.” So yeah, Oliver was, was convinced by this. And I think it’s cool that the Lord, rather than just saying, Hey, trust Joseph’s translating gifts, okay, going forward, the Lord is actually saying, You’ve had revelation yourself, Oliver. Think about how I enlightened your mind when you’ve inquired of me. You know how you were, like, so eager to come and meet Joseph Smith and you felt called to come and scribe for him? You kept telling Father and Mother Smith about that. That was me. Remember that night when you prayed to know the truth of these things and you felt profound peace? That was me. That’s how it works.

Scott Woodward: You, too, have a gift of revelation and you can learn to rely on it. And that’s super cool, actually.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And it, it, again, it speaks to that principle of sometimes people have to be taught what revelation looks like. It’s not always what they’re expecting. That might be lesson one if this, these sections are a seminar on how revelation works.

Scott Woodward: And, like, the most natural thing in the world is to doubt whether or not that was really revelation. Isn’t that like the most common question we ask is, like, Was that really revelation or not? Oliver is squarely in that camp, right? He’s like, I don’t know. Can I fully trust that? The Lord says, Yeah, you can trust that. You have a gift, Oliver. Now, one more thing before we talk about Oliver being invited to translate, which is a super cool part of this revelation. We should go back to verses 18 and 19 for just a second, because clearly Oliver has noticed legitimate shortcomings, maybe even faults in Joseph Smith, Joseph’s 23, Oliver’s 22. Oliver’s kind of this, like you said, more educated kid, probably recognizing Joseph’s shortcomings here. But the Lord says this to him. Look at this. He says that he wants him to, quote, in verse 18, “Stand by my servant Joseph faithfully, in whatsoever circumstances he may be for the word’s sake.” And then he invites him in verse 19 to “admonish him in his faults and also receive admonition of him. Be patient; be sober; be temperate; have patience,” and then “faith, hope, and charity.” And so that, that’s pretty cool, right? That the Lord is saying, It’s okay if you see faults in Joseph. Like, point them out in the spirit of faith, hope, and charity, and then receive admonition from Joseph in that same spirit. You don’t have to pretend, Oliver, like you’re not seeing faults. You’re going to see faults in Joseph, but that’s all right.

Casey Griffiths: And that’s a drum I don’t think we want to beat too much. We spent a lot of last week talking about how the opening revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants are all about how Joseph Smith is flawed. But I guess, I guess that’s the process of revelation, too, is to understand that it comes through flawed, imperfect people sometimes. That’s part of our seminar also.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Oliver should be careful. In fact, in the next few up to verse 21, the Lord talks about the light shining in the darkness. “I am the light that shines in the darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not.” I think it’s interesting he brings that up, and that’s a reference from the Book of John. But bringing that reference up in this context suggests that Oliver should be careful. Many people miss the divinity of Jesus Christ because Christ was a mortal. He was a mortal being during his life. A lot of people missed him. And so I think the Lord is saying here in verse 21 that Oliver should be careful not not to miss the divinity of what is happening right before his eyes simply because it’s being mediated by a flawed young seer who’s using seer stones that shine in darkness at the bottom of Joseph Smith’s hat. Sometimes big divine things happen in seemingly mundane or common ways, you know. Joseph Smith will bring up later that Jesus, the God of the universe, was born in a, like, a stable, and that if you, if you want to dismiss Jesus because of the swaddling cloth, the mortal swaddling cloth that enwrapped him, you’re going to, you’re going to miss the greatest opportunity of your life. The same thing is true about the Restoration. Like, don’t miss the profundity and the divinity of the Restoration because of all the swaddling cloth, because of all the humanity that you’re going to see here. I think verse 21 is pretty profound that way. Okay, so then comes the invitation. Not only is Oliver able to receive his own personal revelation as, in terms of guidance for his life and have a confirmation that Joseph Smith is receiving revelation, but the Lord, surprisingly, actually invites Oliver to go ahead and try the work of translation himself. This is pretty cool. Assuring him in verses 25 through 27 that if he desires it, the Lord will enhance Oliver’s current revelatory gifts to enable him to assist more directly in bringing forth these ancient, quote, “records which contain much of my gospel, which have been kept back because of the wickedness the people,” and, quote, “those parts of my scriptures which have been hidden because of iniquity.” Oliver can, like, actually help in translation, which is wild. And that’s going to lead to Sections 8 and 9, bookmark that for a second. But in verse 28, the Lord then speaks to both Oliver and Joseph and gives them what he calls, quote, “The keys of this gift which shall bring to light this ministry,” which is probably a reference to the spiritual keys necessary to bring forth the Book of Mormon, no doubt, surrounding revelation, right. The Lord then assures them that whether or not these words of Christ that are being brought forth by these two young seers is rejected or accepted by those of that generation, Joseph and Oliver will be blessed for their efforts. And then the Lord drops this, “Even,” the Lord says somberly, “if they do unto you what was done unto me.” In other words, even if you are martyred like I was, you’ll still be blessed to dwell with me in glory. Which is super interesting, right? Because we know that Oliver Cowdery does not get martyred with Joseph Smith. It was Joseph and his brother Hyrum. But Section 124 says that Hyrum Smith replaced Oliver Cowdery. I mean, that connection has been drawn before that, potentially, if Oliver Cowdery did not leave, like you mentioned in 1838, he’ll be excommunicated from the Church. He’ll come back in 1848. Joseph and his brother Hyrum are martyred in 1844. I’ve often wondered, because of this verse, if maybe it ought not to have been Joseph and Oliver.

Casey Griffiths: You’re not on your own there because, you know, no less a figure than Joseph Fielding Smith makes that argument in Doctrines of Salvation. He says, If everything would have stayed on course, Oliver would have been the person in Carthage Jail, not Hyrum.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, interesting. So let’s conclude the content here, and then we’ll jump over to some controversies. But I love that as the Lord concludes here, he assures both Oliver and Joseph that he’s in their midst, that they should not fear to do good because they will reap what they sow and will ultimately prevail over earth and hell. I love that. If they’re built on the rock of Christ. And he assures them that though he’s aware of their flaws, he does not condemn them. And, gosh, I don’t know how often we need to hear that, Casey, as, as humans, but what reassurance that is, right. I, I know of your flaws, and I don’t condemn you because of them. In fact, he goes on to say, “Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not,” because of your flaws, look unto me. And then in a final gesture intended, I think, to help both young revelators understand, like, why they have no need to doubt or fear, the Lord invites them to consider the sacred emblems of his own triumph over earth and hell, where he says, “Behold the wounds which pierced my side, and also the prints of the nails in my hands and feet.” Like in spite of the worst that man could do to you, including inflicting death, he’s already mentioned to them, the Lord has been victorious over all. And so he is thereby, I think, powerfully affirming that victory is certain for Joseph and Oliver if they will be faithful to the resurrected Christ. Don’t rely on their own strength, but they can look unto him in every thought, doubt not, fear not, be faithful to him, keep his commandments. And under those conditions, victory is certain. So powerful.

Casey Griffiths: Well, let’s talk controversies in Section 6 then. And some of these we’re going to deal with relatively quickly because they kind of carry throughout the sections. But what would you say is controversial in, in Section 6?

Scott Woodward: Well, we mentioned in passing that Joseph Smith is translating by looking at rocks. He’s looking at rocks in the bottom of his hat, Casey.

Casey Griffiths: We talked a couple of weeks ago about this folk magic overlay that exists in the early Restoration, that that’s the world that Joseph Smith grew up in. It seems like Oliver Cowdery, because he’s a little bit more educated, is probably more of a man of the Age of Enlightenment. We do find out, however, later on, that he does have, you know, some of these magical worldview tendencies as well. But that might be some of the territory that Oliver is negotiating here, too, is like, Hey, I’m, I’ve been taught and raised and educated. Now you want me to expect revelation, a sacred document, to be revealed through the use of these stones, which, which could have been disconcerting for Oliver a little bit.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. I like that you brought up the Age of Enlightenment. Because it’s interesting how Joseph Smith’s time, like, here we are in the 18, what are we at? 1829. This is just on, like, the border of the Age of Enchantment versus the Age of Enlightenment. It’s kind of, there’s a tension still between these two worlds. This is pre-germ theory still, Casey. This is, still, like there’s a lot, we don’t have electricity yet on Earth in 1829. There’s a lot of beliefs in, in terms of, like, the Age of Enchantment, where a lot of the world, like, is kind of magical in some ways. And like you said, you mentioned that a few weeks ago, the magical worldview. And so there’s also those that are starting to look upon this enchanted worldview with some skepticism as they’re learning more and more about how the world works. That would cast this in some sort of, I think, a controversial light. Obviously, us in the age in which we live, we have some serious doubts. We harbor doubts about people being able to translate books by looking at rocks. What do we want to say about this?

Casey Griffiths: Well, I mean, part of the work of history is to contextualize, right? And stuff like seer stones and scrying and stuff like that does seem objectively strange to us in our time. But we’ve got to do the work a little bit to ask, Was it strange in Joseph Smith’s time and in the cultural context he existed in? And it seems like it was one of those things that, to some people, was an affirmation that the work was divine. The Whitmer family, for instance, who are going to come in the story a little bit later on, said that they doubted Joseph when he wasn’t using a seer stone, that that was a sign that it was the real deal. So, I, again, we’ve got to do the work to kind of go back in time, that we’ll use this phrase a lot, to the past as a different country, and understand the cultural environment that they lived in and not just look at it from the culture environment that we live in.

Scott Woodward: So it’s interesting to note this idea that people would, like, channel divine power through special stones. Like that concept was not foreign to Joseph Smith. Like he had grown up in a New England subculture where many people, including his own father, believe that divine knowledge could be revealed through objects like rods, stones, similar to what had been done in biblical times. And that belief seems to have been carried over from England, where between like the 1600s and the 1800s, there were, like, people in communities called scryers or seers. And they would often use stones to find, like, hidden or lost objects or to even see the future. We see just little remnants of it today in, like, kind of mythology culture, like Harry Potter and the Sorcerer’s Stone. Oh, a sorcerer’s stone. A stone that a sorcerer used. Oh, yeah. Which, you know, is, like, really interesting. In fact, it’s super, super interesting to think that Isaac Newton, kind of the father of the Age of Enlightenment, in some ways, actually used a seer stone. Do you know that, Casey?

Casey Griffiths: I was vaguely aware. But…

Scott Woodward: Isaac Newton used a seer stone. Anyway, yeah, so it’s a totally different world. And this time period Joseph is in is a bridge time period between the Age of Enchantment and the Age of Enlightenment. And so when Moroni showed up and said, There are two stones that are included with the plates, and possession and use of these stones constituted seers in ancient time. And these stones have been prepared for the purpose of translating the book. I don’t think Joseph blinked an eye. I think he was like, That makes sense, you know. There are objects included with the plates that can be used to translate. Awesome.

Casey Griffiths: And it’s just an example of the Lord speaking to Joseph Smith in his cultural context and using the world that he lives in. Like, the Lord does speak unto us according to our own language, according to our own understanding, that’s in D&C 1. This is part of Joseph Smith’s cultural language. But for Oliver Cowdery, it does seem like, based on what we know about Section 8, he at least is familiar with this, but it may have taken a little time to reintroduce himself into this world of folk magic, I guess.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. And today, like the way that my Enlightenment-era brain tries to make sense of this, Casey, is to say, Listen, we have really cool technology. Like, there’s this app where you can literally, like, just open up the camera. I was in Greece, and I was looking at a menu that was all in Greek, and I got my phone and I put it up. I looked through the camera and I, I put the menu on my camera and it instantly translated the whole menu into English. And it has all these different languages you can do. You can just like put it up against any language and it translates it instantly. And you can see on your screen what it says. That’s pretty cool technology, Casey, for translation. My mind goes like this. It’s like, why couldn’t God, like, use rocks to do that? And, like, God knows and is aware of a technology that I think would still blow our minds. We can actually do this now, Casey. We can, like, as humans, we can get glass, our iPhone, and we can put it over a language that we don’t know, and we can see it in the language that we do know. And if humans can do that now, like, why, you know, I mean, God, who’s infinitely more powerful than us and has much more capacity, why could he not help Joseph, through rocks, do that? And so, so that’s what my Age of Enlightenment mind does today. I’m like, Okay, God was seeding some pretty cool technology into those stones, and it worked, obviously, because we have the book. I don’t know. What do you do with that with your mind of, you’re a child of the Enlightenment. What do you do with that?

Casey Griffiths: I quote the late Arthur C. Clarke, and full admission, I first heard this in the movie Thor, that any technology sufficiently advanced would be indistinguishable from magic. And so, I mean, God understands all science, and my Age of Enlightenment mind tells me that if there’s a supreme being, he knows how everything works. I’m guessing that a person brought from the Age of Enchantment would look at something like a cell phone and think that it was magical because he couldn’t comprehend the principles. So I’m okay saying we’re dealing with someone whose understanding is far more advanced than ours is.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, that satisfies my Age of Enlightenment mind.

Casey Griffiths: All right, let’s get into consequences, which I think the consequence here is Oliver is on board. This revelation is not only directly and lovingly addressing Oliver’s questions and his doubts and his fears, but it’s inviting him to become part of the Lord’s work by serving as a scribe. And you’re going to work with flawed people, Oliver. The Lord also addresses a number of Oliver’s flaws. But through these flawed people, the Lord can do great things. The revelation kind of solidifies Oliver’s witness to Joseph’s prophetic calling, sets him on a path to contribute in a huge way for the next several years in the Church and assures him that this is important, and I’m going to help you accomplish this as well. So this is Oliver being drafted into the great cause.

Scott Woodward: Okay, well, let’s transition now over to D&C 7. So in the midst of translation here, we get an interesting conversation between Joseph and Oliver. Actually, a little bit of a controversy between them themselves. Do you want to tell us about that?

Casey Griffiths: I want to point out, when you read D&C 6, 8, and 9, Section 7 is going to feel like a weird tangent. The text itself, when you just start reading it, you’re going to basically say, What? Like, this, this is coming out of left field. But I would say, don’t skip Section 7. It’s an important part of understanding the translation process because not only are Joseph and Oliver translating, they’re learning. Section 7 seems to indicate they were, like, debating and discussing scripture. You know, I’d like to think that Joseph and Oliver would host a pretty interesting podcast if they had the technology. So they start translating, and the introduction that’s given here is Joseph writes, “During the month of April, I continued to translate and Oliver to write with little cessation, during which time we received several revelations. A difference of opinion arose between us about the account of John the Apostle, mentioned in the New Testament, whether he died or whether he continued.” And this is one of those passages in the New Testament that you can puzzle over till your puzzler is sore, where John is talking to Jesus. In fact, it’s John and Peter speaking to Jesus right at the end of the Gospel of John. And it’s sort of ambiguous as to what he says, where in the account, Jesus speaks to Peter about John and says, “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?” And Jesus doesn’t really confirm or deny that John will, in fact, live till the Second Coming of the Savior. So there’s differences of opinion.

Scott Woodward: What was it in the Book of Mormon that sparked this question?

Casey Griffiths: There are several things that could have sparked this. So on the one hand, there’s references in the Book of Mormon to people being taken up, people, like, being taken up and not dying. Like, the earliest one is Alma 45:19, where it mentions just offhand that this is what happened to Moses, which is kind of a huge revelation. And it mentions it in the context of saying that Alma the Younger, the Book of Mormon prophet, was taken up by the Spirit or buried by the hand of Lord. That’s in Alma 45:19.

Scott Woodward: So we don’t know exactly where they were transiting, but that might have sparked, like, the thought.

Casey Griffiths: It’s mentioned in 3 Nephi 28 also, too. It just seems like they wouldn’t have been that far along at this point, but we could be wrong.

Scott Woodward: Because Section 13 is going to come from translating 3 Nephi, like, 11, right. They’re going to start asking about authority and power to baptize. It doesn’t seem like they’ve covered 3 Nephite 28 yet with the three Nephites, so.

Casey Griffiths: It seems like they wouldn’t be that far along, but we could be wrong. We, we don’t, we don’t know the exact date here. But we do know that their argument, they basically mutually agree to settle. Like, the same way when you and I debate, Scott, you know, we’ll say, Well, let’s go to the internet. Let’s harness the awesome power of the online community. They go to the Urim and Thummim. So they basically say, Yeah let’s, let’s ask the Lord. And through the medium of the Urim and Thummim, they get Doctrine and Covenants 7, which again has this kind of interesting language surrounding it. The first printing of this revelation, which is in the Book of Commandments just mentions that it was translated from parchment, written and hid up by John the Beloved himself, meaning probably that they looked into the instruments that they’re using and they see the parchment there, and that’s where they get the answer from. They, they don’t ever mention they have a physical parchment, so they must have seen it in the Urim and Thummim.

Scott Woodward: And so they look into the Urim and Thummim, probably Joseph, probably not both of them, but Joseph looks into the Urim and Thummim with this question in mind about John the Beloved, and he sees a parchment written by John the Beloved. But that parchment itself would not be written in English. That would be probably Greek. So then he sees a translation of a parchment that John wrote. Is that what we understand from this?

Casey Griffiths: Again, that’s all we have to go off of. But it is interesting that, you know, it’s, it’s putting forth the idea here that the instruments they’re using can not only translate physical medium that they have, like the plates, but that it can present to them texts and objects that they don’t physically have, which could be interesting when we’re talking about Joseph Smith’s conception of what translation means, that it was not translation in the way we think of it, that it’s revelation. To add another wrinkle to this, too, it shows up first in the Book of Commandments, which is published in 1833. Then when it’s published again in 1835, in the first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants, there’s added material that’s put into this as well. Most likely this is an inspired clarification or an interpolation that’s added by the prophet, drawn in part from related scripture, but it does kind of show another thing about the way Joseph Smith sees scripture, which is he doesn’t see it as carved into granite. He sees it as malleable and changeable based on his prophetic calling, which is kind of a valuable insight also to understand his mindset.

Scott Woodward: Well, let’s look at the text then. Let’s, let’s dive in here. The text of D&C 7 begins actually in the first-person language of John himself, recounting his dialogue with the Lord. And then verses 2 and 3 decisively cut through this centuries-old ambiguity, Casey, here it comes. We learn with great clarity that John was indeed given, quote, “power over death,” and he was promised by the Lord that he would “tarry until I come in my glory.” Booyah.

Casey Griffiths: So D&C 7 establishes, once and for all, he did not die. But that raises another question, which is, a lot of times our simplified narrative of the apostasy is just all the Apostles died, and therefore the priesthood was taken from the earth. But if John didn’t die, then the priesthood was never fully taken from the Earth. And we would have already had to deal with this because the Book of Mormon establishes that three of the Nephite disciples did not die either. So why didn’t these guys get together and call new apostles? And why was there a whole apostasy, basically? And like I said, it’s confirmed in the Book of Mormon, in 4 Nephi, and in Mormon 8. Mormon and Moroni both confirmed that the three Nephites were still around in their day, hundreds of years later. So why don’t these guys just reorganize the Church? Why wait until 1820? I guess would be the controversy.

Scott Woodward: Right, it’s a great question. And, like you said, it is, it is attacking that kind of simplified assumption about the apostasy.

Casey Griffiths: We should note, too, that other than Doctrine and Covenants 86, I don’t know if the Savior himself ever describes the apostasy as just the Apostles died. In Section 86, he says the Apostles fell asleep and then describes a narrative. But in Section 1, when he describes the apostasy, he doesn’t mention prophets and the apostles. He mentions idolatry and changing the ordinances and everything like that. He doesn’t say the Apostles dying was a problem because it feels like he can call new apostles.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, 100%. And so there must be more going on. Here’s a thought from Elder Joseph Fielding Smith. He says that “even in the days of apostasy, the Great Apostasy, the Lord never surrendered this Earth and permitted Satan to have complete control. Even when the Great Apostasy occurred following the death of the Savior’s Apostles, our Father in heaven held control and had duly authorized servants on the earth to direct his work and to check, to some extent, at least, the ravages and corruption of the evil powers. These servants were not permitted to organize the Church nor to officiate in the ordinances of the gospel, but they did check the advances of evil as far as the Lord deemed it necessary.” That’s one interesting perspective on it, right? That they were kind of here to keep Satan in check and keep evil at a manageable level in some way.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, that phrase, “check the advances of evil” kind of piques my curiosity. I’d love to know the behind-the-scenes story of what was going on there. This is from a 1997 talk by Henry B. Eyring. He said, “There seems to be no end to the Savior’s desire to lead us to safety, and there is constancy in the ways he shows us the path. He calls by more than one means so that we’ll reach those willing to accept it. And those means always include sending the message by the mouths of his prophets, whatever the people have,” and I think here’s the keyword, “qualified to have the prophets of God among them. Those authorized servants are always charged with warning the people and telling them the way to safety.” And so it seems like President Eyring is saying is that prophets and them acting in open prophetic ways isn’t necessarily a right. It’s a privilege that people qualify for. And that if people are just going to reject the prophets and murder them, that God can withdraw the prophets, and that the apostasy was more a function of that, that John and the three disciples were told to withdraw publicly and wait until conditions were a little bit better.

Scott Woodward: One day, the story of John and the Three Nephites over the last 2,000 years is going to be told. And I’m just so curious and so interested to see what kind of fascinating tales they have to tell and what they’ve been up to for the last 2,000, especially, like you said, when they withdrew, what does that mean? If they’re withdrawing from society, what are they doing?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And how are they checking the advances of Satan, too? Like, I want to know that story.

Scott Woodward: There’s more to come with John. There are some occasions in our history where appearances of John have been recorded, Casey. The most, I think, authoritative one that we can take to the bank is when he appeared with Peter and James to confer the apostleship and the keys of the kingdom on Joseph and Oliver Cowdery. It was Peter, James, and John.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. There’s a couple others, too, though, and I want to credit Frank Judd and Terry Szink. They did a great article you can find for free that talks about the appearances of John during the Restoration period. I’m just going to mention a couple here. In June 1832, John Whitmer, who was the historian of the Church, recorded that, quote, “The Spirit of the Lord fell upon Joseph Smith in an unusual manner and prophesied that John the Revelator was then among the 10 tribes of Israel.” So Joseph Smith prophesies that John, the Revelator, is among the 12 tribes of Israel. Oliver B. Huntington, another early Latter-day Saint, said that while Zion’s camp was going on. They woke up one morning, they saw Joseph Smith standing a ways off talking to a man. He came back and told them that the man was John the Beloved and that he was preparing the 10 tribes for their return. And hen one more from Heber C. Kimball, Heber C. Kimball reported that John appeared in the Kirtland Temple in 1836, writing that, quote, “The beloved disciple John was seen in our midst by the Prophet Joseph, Oliver Cowdery and others.” So, h’s been in the temple, and it makes sense that he would be in and out of all these things, but it seems like he still wasn’t given a prominent public leadership role within the Church, probably because that would have major consequences for the plan of salvation. If everybody knew there was this guy that didn’t die, he was 2,000 years old, that would be a distraction, I guess, from the work of the Restoration.

Scott Woodward: Fascinating. All right, let’s talk about the consequences, aftermath of D&C 7. I think we can say that the contributions of Section 7 go beyond just answering that centuries-old question about John’s living status, but also demonstrating how later revelation can build upon and clarify a previous revelation. But this section also does three other things. First, as a translation of a missing Johannine parchment. This section also confirms what the Lord had recently told Oliver and Joseph just in D&C 6, that there were ancient records and scriptures which were kept back and hidden because of iniquity. This is a cool example of that, Section 7 is. Second, it also confirms that Peter, James, and John were actually given vital keys which would play an important role prior to Jesus’s second coming, a fact which would soon be confirmed to Joseph and Oliver when Peter, James, and John appear to them and confer these very keys upon their heads. In fact, I think we’re just maybe a month or two out actually from that happening, and so. It’s kind of cool that they had Section 7 happen first, and then they met John not but a month or two later, which is super cool. Okay, so then the third thing that this section does is it basically underscores the fact, and this is a cool point, that the Lord truly is a granter of righteous desires. As long as those desires are aligned with his will, the Lord seems to be willing to grant according to our desires. Although Peter John receive very different blessings from the Lord as to their lifespans, they both receive from the Lord according to their desires, and both, the Lord says, will have joy therein. And that’s something interesting to contemplate as well.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So this one isn’t as out of left field as it feels. It’s still in this sequence of this seminar, I’m going to call it, of Section 6 to Section 9 on personal revelation. If you ask for things, the Lord is more than willing to grant them. And it also brings up this idea that’s going to show up in Section 8 again, that the translation of the Book of Mormon isn’t the end of the job, that there’s going to be multiple translation projects that will happen as part of the Restoration. This is really just the beginning.

Scott Woodward: Which is a great transition to Section 8. And really, Section 8 and 9 need to kind of go together. They’re really two parts of the same story, aren’t they?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. They have pretty much the same sort of context that they’re given.

Scott Woodward: Is it fair to say that the context for Section 9 is Section 8? Can we say that?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And you should never, you know, study these sections on their own. They belong together. They’re really part of the same story. So here’s the context. Okay, we mentioned several times, they start translating on seventh of April, 1829. And as they’re translating sometime into the translation efforts, we’re not sure exactly when, they get Section 6, which gives Oliver, it says, among other things, that he would be granted the gift to translate, “even as my servant Joseph.” And it appears that Oliver became really anxious and wanted to do what Joseph Smith was doing. He wanted to have the power to translate. This is what Joseph Smith’s history says, “Oliver Cowdery became exceedingly anxious to have the power to translate bestowed upon him as promised.” And so Oliver is not going off the reservation here. His earlier revelation had said that he would get this power. And Joseph Smith also doesn’t seem to be offended by Oliver asking to do this either. Because his response isn’t, No, it’s my job to translate. His response is, Why don’t we ask the Lord and see what he has to say? And that’s where Section 8 is received. Just an answer to that question, can Oliver translate? And then Section 9 comes after it seems he’s not able to translate.

Scott Woodward: Okay, very good. So let me drop into the content here of Section 8. Then what does it say? Well, this gets really fun. In Section 8 here, Oliver is told by the Lord that he has two related gifts, both of which are relevant to his desires to translate. The first gift the Lord calls “the spirit of revelation,” and the second he calls “the gift of Aaron.” Now, the way this first gift of the spirit of revelation works, the Lord explains, is that if Oliver will “ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that [he] shall receive,” he will be given “a knowledge concerning the engravings of ancient scriptural records,” which were referenced previously back in verse 26 and 27. And this knowledge will be given by the Lord in Oliver’s mind and in his heart by the Holy Ghost. I think these are very familiar passages to Latter-day Saints. We like to quote verse 2 and 3, that Oliver would know “in [his] mind and in [his] heart by the Holy Ghost, which will come… and dwell in [his] heart.” “This,” the Lord explains, “is the spirit of revelation.” And then he further explains that this gift will not only be useful in helping Oliver gain knowledge of ancient records, but also in delivering him out of the hands of his enemies who would otherwise slay him. Which makes sense of the next phrase where he says, It’s the same spirit that led the prophet Moses to deliver the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground. Precisely a moment of revelation that came when enemies were trying to destroy Moses and his people. In other words, the spirit of revelation seems to have broad application here. This can help you in times of exigency when your life is in danger, or it can also help you in translating ancient records, Oliver. This is a gift with broad application. And we drop down in verses 6-11, where the Lord instructs Oliver regarding this second related gift. What verses 6 and 7 in our current text refer to as “the gift of Aaron.” What’s interesting here is that the phrase the Lord used in verse 6 in the earliest manuscript of this revelation was, catch this. “The gift of working with the sprout.” Is he a gardener? What does this mean? Okay, let’s keep going. In verse 7, he calls it this “thing of nature.” Then later on, as Sydney Rigdon was preparing this manuscript for the 1833 printing, he actually crosses out the word “sprout” in verse 6 and “thing of nature” in verse 7, and he writes “Rod” above both of them. So the gift of working with the rod. Then in the 1835 printing of this revelation, Joseph changed both phrases to “gift of Aaron,” as they now appear in Section 8, which is really interesting. And maybe we could pause right there and introduce our very first controversy of Section 8.

Casey Griffiths: You have led us to a controversy, which is…

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: What? Let’s address this gift of working with the sprout. So what’s going on here? Why change the “gift of working with the sprout” and this “thing of nature” to the “gift of working with the rod,” and this rod to the now current phrase, “the gift of Aaron?” We’ve talked about this a little bit earlier, but we want to hearken back to the idea that in the 1820s, when this revelation was received, it’s given in 1829, some in society were believed to have the spiritual gift of working with divining rods.

Scott Woodward: What’s a divining rod?

Casey Griffiths: Okay, so a divining rod has to do with this folk magic overlay. We’ve talked about a little bit when we talked about Joseph Smith’s seer stones and money digging and all that stuff. Divining rods could be rods made of green, flexible shoots or rods cut from hazel, peach, or cherry trees. And use of these rods dated back centuries and were typically used by those who had this gift to find water and minerals in the ground. And it’s an interesting thing. When I, when I teach this and bring it up in class, usually I have a couple of students that say, Yeah, you know, I know this guy who worked with a divining rod, or my dad worked with a divining rod.

Scott Woodward: Water witching, right? Is that what people call it today, water witching?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, but I mean, the word witching kind of carries the wrong connotation.

Scott Woodward: Divining rod also isn’t too far off.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. I mean, they, they didn’t think of it as a cult from what we can see. Like, and sometimes today, we might associate it with that, especially words like witching. They saw it as aligned with Christianity and that it wasn’t contrary to the scriptures. In fact, it was evidence of God’s divine help. That’s why I’d use the word divining rod before. What did you say? Witching wand or something like that?

Scott Woodward: Water witching is what I’ve heard it called. What’s crazy is that obviously Oliver had used such divining rods in the past. It’s interesting what the Lord is calling here, the gift of working with the sprout could be connected with this gift of revelation. The Lord doesn’t seem to be saying, That’s weird. Don’t do that, Oliver. He seems to be saying, That’s legit. You have a gift, the gift of working with the sprout, this thing of nature that you hold in your hands. It, too, is an object of revelation, and maybe it could be used in the process of translating the Book of Mormon?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, and it might even be what the Lord was making reference to in Section 6. In Section 6, verse 11, the Lord says, “If thou wilt inquire, thou shalt know mysteries which are great and marvelous; therefore thou shalt exercise thy gift, that thou mayest find out mysteries.” In verse 12, “Make not thy gift known unto any save it be those who are of thy faith. Trifle not with sacred things.” He could be referring to this here, or it could be a different gift, the gift of personal revelation. But this, again, the Lord says in Section 1, “I speak unto men unto to their own understanding and in their own language.” He could be talking in the cultural language that Joseph and Oliver are familiar with. But in the 1830s, when the Book of Commandments and the Doctrine and Covenants were published, there’s kind of this increasing hostility towards supernatural acts like this. And they’re moving into a broader community outside of this New England setting that they grew up in. And so things like seer stones and rods were increasingly suspect as part of the spread of the Enlightenment or scientific empiricism or things like that. This might explain why Joseph, recognizing that this might have made sense in their cultural context, but might not make sense for others, decided to change the reading here. So you got Sydney Rigdon, who comes from a couple of hundred miles away, who makes a change. Then you’ve got Joseph Smith, who just changes it to the more biblical idea of a gift of Aaron, which really is what Oliver does. He’s compared to being Aaron to Joseph’s Moses, several other places in the Doctrine and Covenants. I want to point out here, he doesn’t like criticize or devalue Oliver’s gift. He legitimizes it by reminding him that he already told him many things through it and assuring him that it operates by God’s power, and it’s a gift from him that God has given to him. He even tells him not to trifle with the gift, but to use it righteously. It’s a way of asking God for knowledge, specifically to learn the mysteries of God and to translate ancient records. And all of this, the Lord tells Oliver, will be done according to his faith.

Scott Woodward: That’s so interesting that it seems like the Lord is hinting here that Oliver could use that gift to translate the Book of Mormon. It’s already interesting enough, especially to us Age of Enlightenment people, to think about Joseph looking at rocks in the bottom of his hat. But you and I talked about how the way we make sense of that today is we have cell phones and things can be sent through glass and that’s fine. Messages can be sent. God’s probably just using advanced technology. But using a rod, using like a water-witching rod? Now, we don’t know for sure that he tried to do it with the water-witching rod, but the Lord seems to be suggesting here that, yeah, if you can channel revelation through that object of power, then try to use that to translate.

Casey Griffiths: I also kind of think that the Lord is trying to basically say to him, Revelation can come a lot of different ways, heart and mind and rod and so on and so forth as a way of basically saying to Oliver, which is something I think we all need to learn, Keep your mind open as to how the answers can come. Sometimes we get locked into hearing a “still small voice” or seeing a vision or getting a “burning in the bosom,” which is going to be mentioned in one of these sections. But those are just some of the ways the revelation can come, and it might be different from person to person.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, that’s a good point. We should stay open to all the ways that God can communicate.

Casey Griffiths: And also not try to judge people that live outside of our cultural context. Like I said, the question to ask here isn’t, Is this weird to us? It’s, Would it have been weird to Joseph and Oliver? It seems like no. These are very casual references. But as they become more cosmopolitan, I guess you’d say, they started to realize, oh, this could be confusing for people that don’t come from the same background as us. So I think it was a smart change to make. But I’m okay with the original text the way it was, too. I mean, I think it’s fine. So don’t keep us in suspense. What happens? Is Oliver able to translate?

Scott Woodward: Well, from the historical record, it’s clear that Oliver felt encouraged by D&C 8, and he did, in fact, attempt to translate the Book of Mormon. When his efforts to do so ultimately failed, however, Oliver reverted back to his original position as scribe and Joseph as translator. Shortly thereafter, after he goes back to scribing, according to Joseph, a disappointed, quote, “Oliver was desirous to know the reason why he could not translate.” So Joseph inquires of the Lord, and Section 9 comes right on the heels of this. The Lord begins that revelation pretty gently, admonishing Oliver to have patience. He was not to attempt to translate anymore from the Book of Mormon, but to continue to scribe for the time being with the Lord’s assurance that he would have later opportunities to hone his gift since there were other records that he would be empowered to assist to translate. And by other records, the Lord might be referencing such future translation projects as the Bible revision, which would get underway in just over a year from this time. Translation of the Book of Abraham was just a few years out. As to the question that Oliver had in his mind as to why he failed to translate when the Lord had clearly authorized him to do so in both Section 6 and Section 8, the Lord explained, quote, “It is because you did not continue as you commenced, when you began to translate.” That’s interesting. The Lord said he actually began to translate. Now, what exactly he means there, we don’t know. But it could suggest that Oliver did, in fact, successfully dictate words that have become part of our Book of Mormon English text.

Casey Griffiths: So Oliver is successful at first, right. So the Lord, and I think this is in Joseph Smith’s history, took away the privilege from him. In the revelation, the Lord does give some kind of pointers. Like we’ve got to move on, Oliver. We don’t have time, but here’s a couple of things that I need you to know. And this is part of his seminar on revelation, where the Lord’s teaching him things. “You’ve not understood,” the Lord tells him, “you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no though, save it was to ask me. But… you must study it out in your mind, and then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right, I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right. But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong. Now, if you had known this, you could have translated.”

Scott Woodward: Wow. So Oliver had apparently underestimated both the intellectual and spiritual effort required to receive the level of revelation needed to translate the Book of Mormon. In fact, the Lord uses the word “feared.” You just read the word feared here, meaning perhaps that he feared failure. I feel like the Lord had been clear, hadn’t he? At the end of Section 8, that Oliver’s translation efforts would only succeed according to his faith, the Lord said. But Oliver failed because, the Lord is suggesting here, he allowed his fears to stifle his faith.

Casey Griffiths: And the Lord kind of tenderly says, “Do not murmur, my son, for it is wisdom in me that I’ve dealt with you after this manner.”

Scott Woodward: What was the wisdom in allowing Oliver to try to translate and fail when the Lord knew, right? And so why set up this little learning of our… You keep calling this like a seminar on revelation. So why let Oliver try and fail? Why promise him that he can translate? And then when he tries, he’s not able to eke out more than maybe 28 words. Like what does he mean that “it’s wisdom in me that I have dealt with you after this manner?”

Casey Griffiths: Well, I mean, this is a whole discussion on why does the Lord let us fail at anything, or why do we sometimes get revelation and then things don’t turn out exactly the way we want them to be? I mean, this is a whole subtopic on the question of faith. But I mean, failure doesn’t always mean rejection, necessarily. And failure can be a part of the learning process. And if this is Oliver Cowdery’s seminar on revelation and how it works, a lot of times you give your student a shot and let them fail and then turn it into an instructive moment, which I think is what the Lord trying to do here.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, I think so. Let’s go over to verse 12, where the Lord says, “For, do you not behold that I have given unto my servant Joseph sufficient strength, whereby it is made up? And neither of you have I condemned?” That line, Do you not behold that I have given Joseph sufficient strength whereby your failure is made up? He’s talking about Oliver’s failure. Don’t you see that Joseph’s strength is sufficient to compensate for your weakness? I just got to pause and think about that. It seems like the Lord is saying that now, Oliver, you have tried and you have failed to translate, right? Can you now appreciate the extent to which your young, unlearned colleague, Joseph Smith, has developed his revelatory gifts? Can you now understand with fresh eyes the miracle, the marvelous work and wonder that you’re now witnessing as you’re sitting across from 23-year-old Joseph and watching him translate the Book of Mormon, page after page, day after day, week after week, using stones that he had received with the record? I think this is the wisdom, this is my thought, and I think that’s what the Lord is saying with verse 12 is, Do you not behold Joseph? Remember that Section 6 had started out with some doubts and fears in Oliver Cowdery’s heart, right? Probably doubts about his own insecurities, but also doubts about Joseph. And what the Lord has just walked him through through this seminar is a Joseph Smith, the Prophet, appreciation seminar as well. Like this is, I think, to help Oliver recognize the gifts of this young seer that he is remarkably getting to scribe for. He actually shares this a couple of years later about his experience being able to scribe the Book of Mormon. He said, “These were days never to be forgotten. To sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom. Day after day, I continued uninterrupted to write from his mouth as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or as the Nephites would have said, interpreters, the history or record called Book of Mormon.” So it seems that Section 8 is encouraging this eager, but perhaps naive Oliver Cowdery to translate as he had seen Joseph do. Then following his failure, Section 9 offers humbling counsel for this developing disciple of Christ. Here, Oliver is gaining valuable insight into developing his own growing spiritual gifts, as well as a pretty deep respect and awe for the miracle that the Lord is accomplishing through the spiritual gifts of Joseph Smith. That seems to be the the biggest lesson.

Casey Griffiths: Wouldn’t you just say that that’s another lesson about revelation? Is that sometimes the lesson is you’re not going to get the revelation. You have to get a confirmation of what someone else has received. We all want to be kind of the hero of the story. But Oliver was being taught here, Hey, sometimes you’re the revelator and translator, and sometimes you’re the scribe. It’s like the body of Christ analogy Paul uses, like the, I can’t say to the hand, I have no need of you. We all have our roles to play. And a lot of times the revelation that we need to get is that the revelation someone else received is correct and true. And then we’re ready to go. Again, admire Oliver, but there is kind of a line you can trace in their relationship where Oliver was better educated. I think Oliver kind of thought of himself as, I think, more intellectual than Joseph and might have needed this early lesson to say, Hey, it’s not always about the amount of training you have. It’s about the calling you receive and the work you put into it. That’s another major thing I would add here in our seminar on revelation is revelation takes work. I have so many students that just assume, If I pray, I’ll get the answer. And the Lord gave you a mind and a heart for a reason. He expects you to reason through things, to grow in understanding. And a lot of times, like the revelation says, Ask me if it’s right. You’ve already made the decision, and then I’ll confirm to you that it’s right, the revelation. Because the evidence here is that Joseph had the plates for over a year at this point. Oliver has been there a couple of weeks, and he’s expecting to just be at the same level. I mean, it takes time. It’s like any other skill. You have to work at it in order for it to become really viable.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Joseph Smith talked about “growing into the principle of revelation,” is how he said it. It’s something you got to learn. It’s like a skill. These revelations that we’ve just looked at today, Casey, 6 through 9, I think are a pretty cool, intimate look into how the Lord has tutored two disciples of Jesus Jesus budding in their spiritual gifts. Joseph is further along in his development of his ability to receive revelation. But Oliver Cowdery is on his way. And the Lord says to both of them, You have a gift. It just takes work. And I don’t know about you, but I am still, I feel like, at the very beginning of trying to figure out revelation. I’m humbled that Section 8 lays out a pattern for revelation. The context is about how to translate ancient records, which has never been a task I’ve been given. But I feel like the principles in Section 8 and 9 have been useful in other contexts as I’ve sought revelation.

Casey Griffiths: Again, we’re stepping around the most important revelation from all these sections, which is anybody can get revelation. It’s not a privileged role. Some people have roles that allow them to receive more specific or more significant revelations. But Oliver Cowdery’s introduction into this whole world is the Lord basically saying to him again and again and again, Yeah, you can do this. Yeah, you can do this. And it reminds me of that statement Joseph Smith gives later on where he says, “God hath not revealed anything to Joseph, but that he will make known to the twelve and the weakest of Saints as soon as they qualify themselves for these things.” That’s going to be a thread throughout the Doctrine and Covenants too, that Joseph Smith is receiving revelation and he’s acting in his role as a prophet. But anybody can get revelation. That’s one of the most beautiful things that we teach is that God speaks to everyone.

Scott Woodward: I love that as an ideal, and I struggle with it in the real. I found that it’s hard to actually get revelation. Peace, maybe, Section 6-level revelation. Seems a lot easier than having words from heaven dictated to your mind. Section 8 and Section 9-level of revelation. There is a difference here. Peace. “Did I not speak peace to your mind?” Section 6. And here are actual words from an ancient record that you can dictate to a scribe. I think what Joseph Smith is doing at age 23 is not just next level, but like next, next level revelation. It’s not like, Yeah, anybody can translate ancient records. Just give it a shot. It’s like, no. We can all stand back and admire what the prophet Joseph is doing. The way we can admire that is by reading the Book of Mormon itself. If you read the text and you get into the details of this thing, it is mind-blowing that this came to Joseph Smith at 23, looking at rocks in his hat, Casey, and how fast it came. We’re going to talk with an expert in our companion episode to this one, with our friend Jack Welch to walk through the rapidity of this translation. Once Joseph starts going, like, full speed ahead, they start April seventh, and they’re done like end of June. We’re going to talk to Jack Welch about pinning down the timing of this. But I would like to say in the same breath as we’re saying, Look, anyone can receive revelation, and the principles are outlined in these sections, I would like to also say that we should all, like Oliver, stand back and admire what God is doing through Joseph Smith, that he doesn’t typically do through people like you and me. Like this is next, next level revelation that Joseph’s getting, and the Book of Mormon is the evidence that it was real. Read the text. We have the text, and it’s pretty remarkable.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. It’s one of those paradoxes that, you know, revelation is something anybody can do, but here is somebody who really received a revelation, a marvelous work and a wonder. And that’s Joseph Smith and coming forth of the Book of Mormon, as we’re going to illustrate when we talk with Jack Welch in our next episode. So I’m looking forward to that. That’s going to be way fun. Talk about translation with one of the world’s experts on it, who we are very grateful to have with us.

Scott Woodward: So we’ll look forward to that. That’ll drop in two days time from now. Well, thank you, Casey. That was a good time, man.

Casey Griffiths: Thanks, Scott.

Scott Woodward: We’ll see you over with Jack Welch.

Casey Griffiths: All right. See you then.

Scott Woodward: Thank you for joining us on this episode of Church History Matters. Our new episodes drop every Tuesday, so please join us next week as we continue to dig into the context, content, controversies, and consequences of the revelations of the Doctrine and Covenants. If you’re enjoying or gaining value from Church History Matters, we would love it if you could pay it forward by telling your friends about it or by taking a moment to subscribe, rate, review, and comment on the podcast. That makes us easier to find. Today’s episode was produced by Scott Woodward and edited by Daniel Sorenson, with show notes and transcript by Gabe Davis. Church History Matters is a podcast of Scripture Central, a nonprofit which exists to help build enduring faith in Jesus Christ by making Latter-day Saint scripture and Church history accessible, comprehensible, and defensible to people everywhere. For more resources to enhance your gospel study, go to scripturecentral.org, where everything is available for free because of the generous donations of people like you. Let me say that again. All of our content is free because people like you donate to make it possible. So if you’re in a position where you’re both willing and able to make a one-time or ongoing donation, be assured that your contribution will help us here at Scripture Central to produce and disseminate more quality content, to combat false and faith-eroding material out there in the digital marketplace of ideas. And while Casey and I try very hard to be historically and doctrinally accurate in what we say on this podcast, please remember that all views expressed in this and every episode are our views alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Scripture Central or the of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thank you so much for being a part of this with us.