Casey Griffiths:
Hello, Scott.

Scott Woodward:
Hello, Casey. Here we are.

Casey Griffiths:
Here we are, once again, Doctrine and Covenants 19.

Scott Woodward:
Can we just pinch ourselves that we get to talk about Doctrine and Covenants 19 for like an hour today, Casey? This is…

Casey Griffiths:
And to get a whole episode just on one section is kind of nice because in some of these other ones, we’ve been really kind of running to get through everything. But this is a nice calm before the storm because there’s a lot of big stuff coming up. And this is one of the shortest, not short, but I’d say one of the sweetest, one of the tenderest sections of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Scott Woodward:
This section came at a time in Martin Harris’s life when he was struggling to make the most challenging sacrifice of his life. So let’s get into it.

Casey Griffiths:
Let’s get into it. Doctrine and Covenants 19 is received in the summer of 1829. We don’t know the exact date that it was given, but probably sometime around the end of June or the beginning of July 1829. Martin Harris is, by this point, one of the Three Witnesses. So that’s another thing to keep in mind is Section 17 talks about the witnesses and what they’re going to see. And then Section 18 is addressed to two of the witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. And then Section 19 is addressed to Martin Harris. It seems like his experience really kind of reinvigorated him when it came to his understanding of the Book of Mormon, his enthusiasm for bringing it forth. But we all have those spiritual highs, and then we’ve got to kind of come crashing down to Earth. And that kind of happens to Martin, too.

Scott Woodward:
What happened?

Casey Griffiths:
Once they’ve seen the angel and beheld the record and had this tremendous, amazing spiritual experience. Now they got to print the book. And, you know, they don’t own a printing press. They can’t do it on their own. They’re going to have to contract with a company to do it. It’s going to be a tall order to find a printer who’s willing to print a manuscript that comes from a record translated by the gift and power of God. That’s going to be something that a lot of businessmen are not going to want to be involved in.

Scott Woodward:
And so by this point, the Book of Mormon manuscript is done, right? The Book of Mormon is totally translated, right. And so now, Martin is helping Joseph negotiate the printing of the manuscript. How is he involved in the negotiations?

Casey Griffiths:
Martin is trying to find a printer that will be willing to print the manuscript. That’s a challenge, and then second, they’re going to have to finance the publication. And Martin is willing to help with both. But let’s just put this into context a little bit. So over the next couple of weeks, following the witness experience, they have negotiations with four different printers. And in each case, Martin tells them that he would personally finance the book’s printing, but three out of the four just refuse to do the job. Two of them, who we have a record of, and Gerrit Dirkmaat has done some good work on this, tells them essentially the same thing that this is a fool’s errand, the project’s going to fail, nobody’s going to buy the books, and you’re going to lose your money. Finally, they have one printer that agrees to do the job, but he’s all the way up in Rochester, which is about 20 miles from Palmyra, and they wanted to do the printing somewhere where they could closely oversee the project. So they approach E. B. Grandin, a printer in Palmyra, who, by the way, had already turned them down once, and just basically said, We’re going to publish the book anyway, but we’d rather have you do it because the Smiths live really close to where Grandin’s print shop was.

Casey Griffiths:
It’s still there right in downtown Palmyra. You can go visit it. If you go on a Church history tour, you go around there. It’s a beautiful little facility that’s been rebuilt, and missionaries will tour you through and show you the printing press and everything.

Scott Woodward:
So they get a yes from a printer in Rochester, and then they use that as like a bargaining chip to get E. B. Grandin in Palmyra to say yes?

Casey Griffiths:
Right. Leverage, right? We’re going to do this anyway, but we’d rather have you do it. So do you want to be involved in this? And Grandin sort of reluctantly says yes. But Grandin really kind of has some extreme demands if he’s going to do this. So the first one is that Grandin says, Okay, I will print and bind 5,000 copies of this book for $3,000, which was a pretty high cost for this.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. In fact, let me just crunch a number here for us. So from that project, Grandin would net around $1,000. Which… So that’s a profit margin of like 33 %, whereas the going rate at the time in the industry was 12 %. So it gives you a perspective. He’s like, I’ll do it, but at a premium, right? I want a 33 % return on this.

Casey Griffiths:
It’s kind of fun when you go to the the Grandin press that they have a picture of Grandin and his wife, and they talk about… I’m glad we’re not bitter or anything, but when I went, the missionaries were like, Oh, E. B. Grandin never joined the Church, but he generously offered to print the Book of Mormon, and I wanted to pipe up and say, No. He high-balled him.

Scott Woodward:
More like reluctantly and high-balling them so he can get maximum profit. He probably saw that they really wanted to do it in Palmyra, and so he, he took advantage of that, it sounds like.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, so I can’t speak to the rest of his life or his character, but in this particular case, he really stuck it to him on cost. That’s quite a bit of money. The domino effect is this. Martin has to agree to put up about 151 acres of land as collateral for the Book of Mormon printing to ensure that Grandin would get paid even if the books don’t sell.

Scott Woodward:
So how long does he have to recoup the cost before he has to mortgage the farm or start selling off the farm? Like how does that work?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. So Martin would have 18 months to repay the debt of $3,000, hopefully from sales of the Book of Mormon, or else Grandin could sell off his lands. Grandin would sell off his lands to recoup his expenses or anything like that. And here’s the thing. Like I said, Grandin refuses to even buy the type or start until Martin has promised to ensure the payment for the printing. He’s not taking any chances. And sometime in late July or maybe early August 1829, again, around a month after the witnesses’ experience, Martin agrees to these terms with Grandin, although he had not yet made the specific arrangements for payment before Doctrine and Covenants 19 was given. So Doctrine and Covenants 19 probably comes around the time that reality is starting to settle in on Martin. Two printers have turned them down, just to put things in context. They told him it was going to fail, that he would lose all his money. Now there’s an actual price tag, and it’s an exorbitant price tag. And Martin realized that this could cost him, well, virtually everything. And just to kind of add to the burden resting on Martin’s shoulders, we’ve already talked about this, but his marriage wasn’t in good shape.

Casey Griffiths:
It was really strained.

Scott Woodward:
Isn’t this why his marriage was so strained? Because Martin kept fraternizing with Joseph, and she thought that by being involved with Joseph, Martin’s going to somehow end up squandering their family’s wealth and life savings, right?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
And so now, here he is saying, I mortgaged the farm to help print the Book of Mormon. Like that’s gonna… Anyway, sorry. I just thought, Oh, my word. Yeah, she is going to be ticked about this.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. We don’t want to reprosecute the whole Lucy Harris thing, but the lost manuscript, Section 5. There’s already been like legal action taken. And this is exactly the thing that Lucy was probably afraid of, that because Martin was involved with Joseph, somehow the entire family’s wealth and life savings would go down the tubes. So this isn’t a light situation. It’s tough for Martin.

Scott Woodward:
I mean, maybe this is a good time to say this is eventually going to lead to Martin and Lucy separating. They never get officially divorced, but they’re eventually going to separate. And… so this strain that we see building up in Martin and Lucy’s marriage is going to come to a head in large part because of his involvement with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. And so you just see some of that foreshadowing right here.

Casey Griffiths:
This would be really stressful. Your livelihood, your marriage, a lot of things. And this is weighing on Martin. In fact, the typesetter, John Gilbert, who works for Grandin, later says, Harris became for a time in some degree, staggered in his confidence, but nothing could be done in the way of printing without his aid. So Martin is at a crossroads here. He’s got to make this huge financial decision. It might have ripple effects on his marriage. He’s already gone through the severe trial of the lost manuscript and then those legal troubles with his wife. So quite understandably, he goes to Joseph and asks for a revelation to help guide him through this. And the earliest printing of this revelation has an introduction that just reads, A commandment of God and not of man to you, Martin, given by him who is eternal. So that’s the context. That’s the stakes.

Scott Woodward:
So on the one hand, Martin has seen an angel recently. On the other hand, this sacrifice could cost his entire livelihood. We see his motivation, but we also see the high stakes here. Then the revelation comes. What does it say? Let’s take a look at the Lord’s message now to Martin right in the midst of his moment of staggered confidence. So the Lord opens this revelation by introducing himself to Martin as “Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord, the Redeemer of the world,” the one who “accomplished and finished the will of the Father,” so that, he says, “I might subdue all things unto myself, retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, the last great day of judgment, when I will judge every man according to his works and the deeds which he hath done.” Section 19 is quoted a lot, Casey, right? It has a lot of theological deep, rich nuggets, especially about the Savior’s Redemption. But I think it does damage to the message if we pull it apart from the context with Martin and the wrestle about sacrificing in order to get the Book of Mormon printed.

Scott Woodward:
And so I just want to kind of read this really tightly with the background, just as you set it up perfectly for us, this context that’s weighing on Martin. It just makes me wonder, for instance, like, why is the Lord saying that to Martin under this circumstance? Why open the revelation this way? Was he emphasizing that his own power came to him by doing the will of the Father so that he could encourage Martin to think of the good that will come by him doing the Father’s will and mortgaging his farm to help print the Book of Mormon? Or was he telling Martin that everyone will be judged by their works and deeds at the last day to remind Martin that he would be judged by the Lord for how he handles this situation. Perhaps both. I don’t know, but just got to keep this context as we read these verses. It’s very helpful, I feel like. Next verse. The Lord continues, “And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless. Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth to those who are found on my left hand.”

Scott Woodward:
In other words, for those who do not repent, the type of suffering he’s describing here is certain, and he himself cannot revoke it or or stop it from happening. “Nevertheless,” he explains in verse 6, “it’s not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.” Let’s noodle on that for a second.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
It doesn’t say no end to the torment. It says endless torment. He goes on, “Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.” What’s the Lord explaining here and why? The term “endless torment” is a strictly Book of Mormon term. It doesn’t show up anywhere else. It shows up seven times in the Book of Mormon. And the phrase “eternal damnation” that he invoked here only shows up one time in scripture over in Mark 3:29. And so the Lord seems to be explaining here that those terms don’t mean what they seem to mean at face value, but rather they are phrased in that way to have a certain effect on the hearts of those who read them.

Scott Woodward:
And it could be that the Lord here is addressing an unspoken doubt or maybe a question in Martin’s heart about the duration of God’s punishment in the afterlife because Martin Harris was a Universalist. He’s one of those group of people who believe that God will eventually save everyone, even if they have to endure some type of temporary punishment for their sins in the next life. You know, maybe Martin found it difficult to reconcile his Universalist beliefs with the strong language in the Book of Mormon about endless torment, or that phrase in Mark about endless punishment. I don’t know for sure, but I find that interesting and perhaps relevant here.

Casey Griffiths:
Scholars always interject their own writing. But one of the earliest papers I wrote was on Universalism. A lot of people that surrounded Joseph Smith, including Joseph Smith’s own father, were Universalists. And it was this philosophy, like you explained, that God would eventually save everyone. The one. And it’s a beautiful philosophy. It doesn’t lend itself well to a church, right? Because what’s the incentive, you know, if everybody’s eventually going to get saved? And the Lord kind of splits the difference between this idea that, No, I’m just going to save everybody and I also have expectations and commandments. In other words, between his mercy and his justice by kind of saying, Yes, people that don’t repent do suffer, but I’m not vindictive. I’m not going to have them suffer forever. James E. Talmage said, “To hell there is an exit as well as an entrance. Hell is no place to which a vindictive judge sends prisoners to suffer and be punished principally for his glory, but it is a place prepared for the teaching, the disciplining of those who fail to learn here upon the earth what they should have learned. No man will be kept in hell longer than is necessary to bring him to a fitness for something better.

Casey Griffiths:
When he reaches that stage, the prison doors will open and there will be rejoicing among the hosts who welcome him to a better state.” So that does split the difference, right, between some Universalists took it so far as to say God isn’t even going to punish anybody. He doesn’t have any expectations. And what the Lord seemed to be saying here, which is I don’t mean that it lasts forever. My name is endless, but I’m not interested in eternal damnation, an eternal suffering.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. You can see how people would trip on the phrases endless torment and eternal damnation. Like that trips up that understanding that there would be an exit to hell. And so… So the Lord continues. Let’s follow what he says here with Martin. He explains this mystery of their true meaning to Martin this way. He says, “I am endless.” That is, “endless is my name,” he says. So any punishment that is given from my hand is endless punishment. In other words, saying eternal or endless punishment is just another way of saying God’s punishment or punishment inflict by one who is endless and eternal, something like that, right? But again, why is he telling Martin this? Perhaps he’s explaining this mystery, too, simply because he doesn’t want Martin to misunderstand the threat that he’s about to make to him in verses 13 to 15. This is another possible explanation why he’s going on this interesting theological tangent, because, listen to what he says next, “Wherefore, I command you, [Martin Harris,] to repent,” the Lord says, “and keep the commandments which you have received from Joseph Smith, Jr. in my name.” Okay, so in context here, it seems that Martin is to repent maybe of his selfish desires to not mortgage his farm, perhaps, for fear of losing his wealth.

Scott Woodward:
He is to go forward with the commandments he has received, a likely reference to the commandments related to financing the Book of Mormon printing. “Therefore I command you to repent,” the Lord continues. I always kind of picture this really, really intimate with Martin right here with the Lord, maybe almost like forehead to forehead, right? Maybe hands on his shoulders. I know it didn’t really happen like this, but this intimate kind of moment. He’s not raising his voice. He’s not threatening. He’s not wagging his finger. He’s gently but very, very directly inviting Martin to carefully consider the sacrifice God is asking him to make. “Therefore, I command you to repent,” the Lord continues. Again, I read this in a gentle voice. “Repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore. How sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear, you know not.” There’s no two ways about this. The Lord is specifically threatening Martin Harris here. Repent of your selfishness or suffer the wrath of God. But he’s not done. “For behold,” the Lord explains, “I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent.

Scott Woodward:
But if they would not repent, they must suffer even as I.” And then, Casey, in the only autobiographical description in all of scripture as to how Jesus felt during his atoning sacrifice. He says this to Martin, “Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit, and would that I might not drink the bitter cup and shrink. Nevertheless,” he says, “glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.”

Casey Griffiths:
Gosh, I don’t know if we appreciate what we’ve got here, you know.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, say more about that.

Casey Griffiths:
Honestly, it seems like the Savior did intend for there to be witnesses of his suffering. According to the biblical accounts, he invites Peter, James, and John to go into Gethsemane with him, but they all fall asleep and don’t witness it. So this is, these little verses right here in Section 19 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the only firsthand account of what happened in Gethsemane. Now, I assume what’s in the four Gospels is accurate and was explained to them later, but this is coming directly from the Savior, and he confirms a couple of things spoken of in other scriptural accounts. For instance, Mosiah 3:7, Luke 22, say that he bled from every pore. Luke actually says his sweat is, as it were…

Scott Woodward:
As it were,

Casey Griffiths:
Sweat coming from every pore. The Joseph Smith translation of verse 44 of Luke 22 later changes that to just blood coming from every pore. But so much is confirmed here, and right here in the Doctrine and Covenants might be the most pure account of what in Gethsemane. I just, wow, that’s powerful. And…

Scott Woodward:
It’s a precious, precious gem.

Casey Griffiths:
It’s a precious gem. And I want to emphasize that the Savior isn’t sharing this to brag or boast about what he has done. He’s sharing it because he’s genuinely concerned about Martin’s soul and tells him, Hey, you don’t understand what has to happen if you don’t take advantage of what I’ve done. I need you to take advantage of this, or you have to experience it on your own.

Scott Woodward:
And I know exactly what it’s going to feel like, and you don’t want that, Martin. I have personally experienced this. It caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain and to want to not go forward with it, to not drink the bitter cup. Like, I didn’t want to do it, Martin, but I did it so that others would not have to go through this. And this is a little theological gem. It’s a very intimate moment with Jesus. He doesn’t exactly explain here the precise source of what caused him to suffer that agony. It’s kind of ambiguous here. But what’s interesting is the freshly-translated Book of Mormon text, which Jesus has just referenced back in verse 6 with the phrase endless torment, which is exclusively a Book of Mormon phrase. The Book of Mormon repeatedly teaches with crystal clarity that Jesus was not coming to Earth to save mankind from God. Can I say that again?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah.

Scott Woodward:
Jesus is not coming to Earth to save us from God, but rather God and Christ are working together. God sends his son in order to save mankind from Satan’s dominion over us, which resulted from the Fall.

Scott Woodward:
Lehi is clear about this. Jacob is clear about this. Abinadi is clear about this. King Benjamin, Alma, Amulek. They are very clear about what the problem was. The problem isn’t God. God’s the solution. The problem is Satan’s dominion over mankind. So according to the Book of Mormon, Jesus suffered on our behalf by being turned over to the endless torment of the devil in the realm of death and hell so that we could escape that fate if we would repent. That’s significant here. He does use the phrase God’s wrath, right, which if you look carefully, you find out both in Book of Mormon, Old Testament text, New Testament, and here in the Doctrine and Covenants. We’ll see it in verse 20 in just a second. But God’s wrath doesn’t mean God inflicting something on us. God’s wrath is when God withdraws his protection and leaves us totally exposed and subject to the devil’s power. It’s God withdrawing and saying, All right, you’re on your own. That’s God’s wrath, right. And so he cannot save us if we’re in the devil’s power and we haven’t repented. Then the devil claims us. But by repentance, we now can come into the Savior’s grace, his power, and the devil can have no claim on us.

Scott Woodward:
I’m summarizing a great deal of Book of Mormon theology on this, but it’s very rich. It was just recently translated a couple of weeks ago at this juncture. And Jesus seems to be tapping into some of that theology right here, so.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, and Martin probably hasn’t read this, right? I don’t know if he was…

Scott Woodward:
I don’t know.

Casey Griffiths:
I think they were probably reluctant to hand him the manuscript at this point and say, Yeah, go ahead, buddy. Read it.

Scott Woodward:
His track record wasn’t super good with taking manuscripts, so good point.

Casey Griffiths:
Let me point out something else. Verse 20, “Wherefore,” the Lord tells Martin, “I command you again to repent and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree, you have tasted the time I withdraw my Spirit.” This is probably a reference to what happened after Martin lost the manuscript. Joseph says, I lost my soul. Martin Harris is in anguish. But it’s also interesting that this is a commentary on a New Testament event, too. He mentions that, you know, during the atoning process, the Spirit was withdrawn, which is another item of speculation about the Savior’s atoning act that he seems to confirm here, that part of the atonement was that the Spirit withdrew from the Savior as well, which is, again, just another wonderful sort of elaboration. This is… I still will sometimes marvel at this, that this is Jesus Christ commenting on his life and events.

Scott Woodward:
Yes. Yes.

Casey Griffiths:
And as a commentary of the New Testament, the Doctrine and Covenants is unparalleled because the central figure of the New Testament is here commenting on what the New Testament says about his own acts. It’s just really amazing.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, great point. And again, notice that he equates punishment with the withdrawal of the Spirit. God’s punishment is not God actively inflicting something on us. Again, God’s on our side. God’s wrath is when he withdraws because he cannot claim us because of the lack of our repentance, et cetera. And the devil is then enabled to do his worst to us. This is when Martin feels like he’s lost his soul. And notice what Jesus said here, Repent lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, even the least degree, you tasted it. You tasted it when I withdraw my Spirit and you thought all was lost. That was just a tiny taste of it, Martin. There’s a lot more where that came from. So please repent. Please repent. Now, again, that’s a great message for all of us. But again, let’s keep it in context here. Why in context of Martin’s hesitancy to mortgage his farm, to print the Book of Mormon, would the Lord explain his atoning sacrifice in such intimate detail? Why not just say, Martin, repent of your selfishness, and move on, you know? Why speak in detail of how excruciating it was to sacrifice himself for the salvation of others.

Scott Woodward:
You know, it seems that the Lord is drawing some subtle parallels here, maybe not-so-subtle parallels between his own atoning sacrifice and Martin Harris’s potential financial sacrifice. This is where I think this story gets really, really rich. It’s massively different. The sacrifice of Jesus versus the sacrifice of Martin Harris is massively different in scope and in scale. Their sacrifices, on the other hand, are actually quite similar in kind and in effect. That is that both Jesus’s atoning sacrifice and Martin’s financial sacrifice would lead to the salvation of other people. This is where it goes in verse 26 and 27. Note how the Lord commands Martin, quote, “Thou shalt not covet thine own property (his farm), but impart it freely to the printing of the Book of Mormon, which contains the truth and the word of God.” Why? Because it, the Book of Mormon, is to go to the Gentile and the Jew that they may believe the gospel. See the dominoes here? The Lord is saying that this book is going to lead to the salvation of many souls, and so Martin, I need you to sacrifice for the salvation of other people. I know now, Martin, you’re starting to sense the financially bitter nature of this sacrifice.

Scott Woodward:
But here the Lord says, Drink that bitter cup, Martin. Do not shrink from your course. I know what it’s like to not want to drink a bitter cup and shrink when other people’s salvation is on the line, and now you’re feeling it. You’re feeling this desire to withdraw, to not go through with that which you’ve committed because it’s going to take a lot of sacrifice. But, Martin, on the other side of this, many, many, many people will be saved.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. A key component in a process that’s going to lead millions upon millions of people to salvation. o the stakes are high here, and that might be why the Savior is so emphatic to him and so direct in telling him what he has to do.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, for instance, look in verse 24 again, he says, “I am Jesus Christ. I came by the will of the Father, and I do his will.” This is what characterizes Jesus at his very, very core, is “I do the will of the Father.” Just as Jesus drank the bitter cup that the Father asked him to drink in his sphere, so Martin can drink the bitter cup in his sphere, the Lord is saying, right. Martin, the salvation of other people is worth sacrificing for. Wow. So I don’t know if, you know, if we step back, Casey, if someone in a Sunday school class made a comparison about selling their farm is like the atoning sacrifice of Jesus. I think we would probably hesitate with that comparison. It It might feel a little inappropriate to make that comparison. But what’s fascinating is that Jesus is the one making this comparison here with Martin, right. They’re massively different in scope and scale, but they’re very similar in kind because both sacrifices will lead to others being able to receive salvation. And so, you know, I’ve thought that maybe it’s not inappropriate for us to make that same kind of comparison with others in other spheres who sacrifice for the salvation of people.

Scott Woodward:
Like I’m thinking of missionaries. Are they making real personal sacrifice for the salvation of others? Absolutely. I think about moms and dads trying to help their kids make and keep covenants. Are they making sacrifices for the salvation of others? Absolutely. I’m thinking about those who serve in Church callings in whatever capacity, those who serve in the temple. Are they sacrificing for the salvation of others? Yes. The big kind of punchline here from Section 19 is, that’s worth it. Sacrificing for the salvation of other people is worth it. Martin, please get the message. Please repent of your selfishness. There’s a lot riding on this.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven. I remember reading somewhere.

Scott Woodward:
That’s a good line. So. Anyway, anything else you want to say about that? I’ve kind of been on my soapbox here.

Casey Griffiths:
No, no, no. Excellent stuff. So in addition to this specific issue of financing the Book of Mormon, the Lord also gives Martin a series of commandments here. And, and let’s walk through them really fast, okay? Verse 21, “Preach naught but repentance.” And we’ll talk about this, but Martin does. Verse 23, “Learn of me and listen to my words and walk in the meekness of my Spirit, and you shall have peace with me.” Verse 25, “To not covet thy neighbor’s wife, nor seek thy neighbor’s life,” which is interesting given the context of Martin having trouble in his marriage and may have been kind of wishing for a different wife or a different life than the one that he was dealing with.

Scott Woodward:
Before I understood the context of this, I thought this was about maybe lust. I thought maybe Martin was, like, lusting after other men’s wives, but the more you learn about his own marriage at this time, I think he maybe was just like, I wish I had a wife that was supportive like that guy and that guy, you know. I wish for any wife other than the one I’ve got right now, which is super sad to say about their marriage, but that’s kind of where it was headed. I’m not sure this is about lust. Of course, if it included that, then that was very appropriate. But considering his situation, there’s multiple reasons he may have coveted his neighbor’s wife.

Casey Griffiths:
Yep. And we want to be fair to Lucy Harris and admit we don’t know very much about her. Pretty much everything we know comes through Lucy Mack Smith, and Lucy Mack Smith definitely did not like her. But we don’t know. Just removing myself religiously from the situation and looking at it objectively, this would be tough on a marriage, right?

Scott Woodward:
Seriously.

Casey Griffiths:
Anytime there’s a believer-nonbeliever marriage, there’s strain. But in this particular case, where so much was being asked of the believer, it’s understandable that there would be a little friction, a lot of friction. Significant friction, let’s say. Okay, so the commandments to him continue, verse 28, “Pray vocally and in [his] heart,” and verse 29, “to declare glad tidings among every people, that thou shalt be permitted to see, and to do so with all humility, declaring only repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism and by the Holy Ghost.” And verse 32, the Lord says, “All of this should suffice for thy daily walk, even unto the end of thy life.”

Scott Woodward:
And then he drops another warning. “And misery thou shalt receive if thou wilt slight these counsels, yea, even the destruction of thyself and property.” You’re going to lose your property for sure if you slight these counsels. Maybe if you don’t, we’ll see, you know, how the Book of Mormon… The Lord doesn’t give any assurance here. The Book of Mormon is going to sell fine, and you don’t have to worry about your farm. He doesn’t give that assurance. He just says, Don’t covert your property. And if you break this counsel, so if you go against this, you for sure are going to lose your property, which is… So Martin’s got his marching orders, right? So he’s to impart most of his property to pay the debt you’ve contracted with the printer, verse 35, to leave his house and his home, except when he desires to see his family, to go out and speak freely to all, to preach, exhort, declare the truth with a loud voice and with the sound of rejoicing, crying, ‘Hosanna, Hosanna, blessed be the name of the Lord God,’ verse 37 says, he is to then pray always and receive the Lord’s Spirit, which is beyond the treasures of this earth.

Scott Woodward:
Another final financial thought there. The Lord then concludes in verse 39 through 41 saying this, and I really like this a lot for some reason. I like how the Lord says it, especially after this, like, really stern talking to, I think how this would have landed in Martin’s heart. The Lord says, “Behold, canst thou read this without rejoicing and lifting up thy heart for gladness? Or canst thou run about longer as a blind guide? Or canst thou be humble and meek and conduct thyself wisely before me? Yea, come unto me thy Savior. Amen.” Casey, that’s amazing revelation. I mean, any revelation from God is going to be treasured and worthy of treasuring. But there is something about Section 19 that just sizzles for me.

Casey Griffiths:
It’s such a human section. It’s kind of a nice redemption for Martin Harris, because, again, we’ve mentioned this a couple of times, but it seems like he’s only ever associated with the lost manuscript. And this is a story where the Lord… If you follow all the sections up to this point, the Lord is leading Martin through the repentance process and even speaking to him very personally. Like, it’s easy to take what the Savior says here to Martin and put it into any context where a person needs to repent, and that’s powerful. And those words should run through our minds and our hearts when we are faced with the choice to repent or continue on the path that we’re on. It’s just a very applicable section and one of the most valuable revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants.

Scott Woodward:
All right, Casey. So any controversies associated with Section 19 that we want to talk about today?

Casey Griffiths:
Well, this might be a little more behind-the-scenes than our audience wants to know, but we struggled to come up with controversies for this section. There’s… First of all, I don’t have any problem with the idea of repentance or Jesus’s atoning sacrifice. All the information here is amazing and not really controversial. Paying your debts is an uncontroversial idea.

Scott Woodward:
Sure.

Casey Griffiths:
And I’ve cited this section to people that were in debt that, Hey, the Lord told Martin Harris he needs to pay his debts, so go to. So I struggled, you know. I can’t think of anything here that’s super controversial. This section seems pretty straightforward. What do you think?

Scott Woodward:
Yeah, I agree. I think, like you mentioned, this is adding a really interesting insight into the Savior’s atoning sacrifice that some who are really interested in New Testament atonement theology, you know, I could see them wrestling with this if they take it seriously. Most people wouldn’t take it seriously if they don’t believe in the Restoration or that Jesus was actually involved in any of this. It’s inserting a really important nugget into atonement theory discussions, you know. So perhaps some might find some of this controversial. But I’m wrestling, grasping in my mind to find anything. And it’s just a beautiful, straightforward invitation to repentance. Maybe some people might be bothered by how threatening Jesus is. Jesus actually threatens Martin Harris very clearly.

Casey Griffiths:
I think it’s all about tone. You read those passages…

Scott Woodward:
Yeah.

Casey Griffiths:
And the tone you used seemed like someone who was concerned, but not necessarily threatening. Like, sometimes clarity is kindness, right? And it seems like the Savior is telling Martin, Hey, here’s exactly the deal. And the stakes are very high, so I understand why he might have used forceful language, but maybe it’s the voice of the Savior that exists in my mind. But I’ve never really read this as super threatening, just kind of more like in the tone of a concerned paternal figure. You know, somebody’s saying, Hey, buddy, if you don’t, this is what’s going to happen. It’s not Jesus saying, I want this to happen. It’s him saying, Here is me telling you clearly what will occur if you don’t repent.

Scott Woodward:
This will be inevitable. Repent or suffer.

Casey Griffiths:
You just quoted Thanos. So you’re clearly on the threatening end of the spectrum there. This is inevitable.

Scott Woodward:
He’s just saying, yeah, If you don’t repent, you will suffer. He’s not saying, I’m going to hurt you. He is saying, I will withdraw. You experienced that a little bit in the slightest, in the very slightest amount when you thought that you had lost your soul with the lost 116. Remember when the Spirit withdrew and that felt like hell? That is nothing to what you’re going to experience. If you don’t repent, then I don’t cover you. If you don’t repent, then I don’t claim you. And therefore, you’re going to be fully subject to the powers of evil, and that’s not going to be good. So yeah, it’s a statement of just the nature of reality of cause and effect, right?

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah. That’s why I don’t read it as a threat. I read it as a warning because, I mean, if you touch the stove, you will get burned. It’s not a threat, right? It’s a statement of fact. And when Jesus says, If you won’t repent, you will suffer, even as I suffer, I think he’s just stating the facts. I don’t think he’s trying to intimidate him into repenting. I think he’s just genuinely trying to warn the guy. And you remember the last time you touched the stove? Yeah, it hurt. But if you put your hand full on the stove, it’s going to hurt. The Savior is saying the same thing to him. You’ve already felt this a little bit, but you don’t want to feel the full force of this, and I’m trying to stop you. I’m doing this because I love you and I care about you.

Scott Woodward:
Yeah. So I think we both read it the same with that really tender paternal regard. Like I said, the image in my mind is forehead to forehead, hands on the shoulders like, Martin, come on, brother. You don’t want to go down that other road, I promise. I promise you don’t want to go that way. Please go this way.

Casey Griffiths:
It’s the tone you use.

Scott Woodward:
It’s the tone. It is. So that’s the only controversy that I can really see, maybe some people not really loving about this section, but I don’t know. Are we grasping here? I think that’s a nothing burger. So maybe we’re just grasping. I don’t see many controversies with Section 19.

Casey Griffiths:
Consequences of Section 19. Major consequence. Martin Harris mortgages his farm. He does what the Lord asked to do. He mortgages his farm for the printing of the Book of Mormon and thus becomes probably the single most important benefactor in bringing forth the Book of Mormon to the world. So one consequence is we get the Book of Mormon.

Scott Woodward:
We get the Book of Mormon.

Casey Griffiths:
That’s a big deal. And the next revelation, Section 20, addresses the organization of a church. They wait until the Book of Mormon is printed to formally organize the Church. So I would say that’s a consequence, too. If we’re talking about personal consequences, we mentioned that Martin Harris’s marriage was struggling, and we have a little information about that, not as much as we’d like. But Andrew Jensen, who was the Church historian, who’s a pretty solid guy, pretty solid source, wrote that Lucy Harris, quote, “partially separated from him, which he patiently endured for the gospel’s sake, and then that their separation became permanent after June 1830.” So Martin and his wife separate. We don’t have any records of them receiving a divorce. And Lucy dies a few years later. She dies in 1836. After Lucy dies, Martin marries Caroline Young. And so it seems like they weren’t divorced. It’s from what we could tell, because Martin waits until she’s passed away before he remarries. But yeah, this is going to cost Martin his marriage, and it’s a huge sacrifice that he makes, and we honor him for that.

Scott Woodward:
And just for the timeline here as we’re now building up to the organization of the Church, which we’re going to talk about in our next couple of episodes. 25th of August, 1829. This is the official day that Martin mortgages the farm. So August, right? Now the printer says, All right, game on. E. B. Grandin begins the typesetting and all the things that go into printing the book. And it’s done. It’s not done until March of 1830. So this is going to be a multi-month process from really effectively September to March 1830, when we finally get the Book of Mormon printed. Then we’re ready, as you said, to organize the Church on April 6th, 1830.

Casey Griffiths:
This is a great story. It comes from a guy named Pomeroy Tucker, who’s sort of antagonistic towards the Church, but was a person who lived in and around Palmyra. The Lord tells Martin to preach the gospel. And in verse 30, he also says, “Thou shalt do it all with humility, trusting in me, reviling not against the revilers.” Pomeroy Tucker tells this story, but here’s what he says, “Harris was proverbially a peaceful as well as an honest man. He was slow to retaliate to an offense. Urging the sale of the book with pertinacious confidence in the genuineness of the Smith revelation, he fell into debate about its character with a neighbor of irascible temperament. His opponent became angry and struck him, Martin Harris, a severe blow upon the right side of his face. Instantly turning the assailant the other cheek, Martin quoted the Christian maxim, reading it from the book in hand, the Book of Mormon, page 481, and also, as it appears in Matthew, ‘Whosoever shall smite thee on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.’” And so I love that story about Martin Harris that, you know, he not only paid for the Book of Mormon, but he sincerely preached the Book of Mormon, and he sincerely believed in the teachings of the Book of Mormon and the Bible, so.

Casey Griffiths:
He’s a good man who sometimes doesn’t get his due. I’m grateful for him.

Scott Woodward:
Wow. That just made me think of verse 23, where he says, Learn of me, listen to my words, walk in the meekness of my Spirit. Walk in the meekness. That’s a pretty meek move to be hit in the face and then to turn the other cheek and not retaliate. That seems to be in the footsteps of the master right there. So well done, Martin. Well done.

Casey Griffiths:
Meekness is not weakness, right?

Scott Woodward:
Meekness is not weak. Meekness is actually harder than retaliation. So that shows a great deal of strength. That’s awesome. Cool story.

Casey Griffiths:
Well, Scott, thank you. This has been a joy and a pleasure. And I’m grateful to defend the good name Martin Harris.

Scott Woodward:
One thousand percet. He is incredible. His story goes on beyond the loss of the 116 pages, it turns out, and he becomes an incredible benefactor to the Church. And every time you pick up a copy of the Book of Mormon, I mean, you can think about the original sacrifice. Obviously, his is not the only one, but let’s throw his name in there as one of the key people who sacrificed a lot to bring forth the Book of Mormon.

Casey Griffiths:
Yeah, well said. Well said.

Scott Woodward:
Casey, we’ll see you actually in two weeks. Maybe our listeners will be interested to know that you are going on loan next week to Hank Smith and John Bytheway’s podcast called Follow Him. You’ll be doing Doctrine and Covenants 20–22 with them. And I will have as your replacement, nobody can replace you, but I will have here on the show with us Dr. Anthony Sweat as our guest, trying to fill the very large shoes of Casey Griffiths.

Casey Griffiths:
I’m going to say in all humility, Anthony Sweat could probably replace me pretty easy. He’s wonderful, and I’m kind of mad I don’t get to debate Section 20 with you, but Hank and John are dear friends of ours, and we do, we’re doing a little companionship exchange here, so.

Scott Woodward:
A little collaboration. Awesome. We’ll see you in two weeks, Casey. Thanks, brother.

Casey Griffiths:
See you.

Scott Woodward:
Bye.