Scott Woodward: Aside from a small handful of events, like the First Vision, the translation of the Book of Mormon, and the restoration of priesthood keys, it is possible that what happened in Nauvoo on August 8, 1844 was the most critical, pivotal moment in our history, forever shaping the trajectory of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This was the day church members in Nauvoo voted on who would lead the church following the deaths of Joseph and Hyrum Smith, and the stakes could not have been higher as they decided between Joseph’s first counselor, Sidney Rigdon, on the one hand, and the twelve apostles led by Brigham Young on the other. Because the choice at hand was not just about who would lead the church, but ultimately about what kind of church it would be. Would the church hold on to and perpetuate the Nauvoo doctrines and practices or abandon them in favor of returning to a more Kirtland- or even Fayette-era-type church? With this vote, the future of the church hung in the balance. On today’s episode of Church History Matters, we walk through the six days in August leading up to and including this meeting of August 8, and we weigh into the controversy about whether or not God actually transfigured Brigham Young in front of the crowd to make him look and sound like Joseph Smith. I’m Scott Woodward, and my co-host is Casey Griffiths, and today Casey and I dive into our third episode in this series about succession in the presidency. Now let’s get into it.

Casey Griffiths: Hello, Scott.

Scott Woodward: Hello, Casey.

Casey Griffiths: Here we are once again, talking about succession.

Scott Woodward: Yes.

Casey Griffiths: And we’ve got a lot to talk about today: many, many things to discuss.

Scott Woodward: Juicy, juicy episode with so much—we were just talking about before we pushed record—so much we think our listeners are going to love in this one because the history is rich and consequential at the same time. And so . . .

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Super important.

Casey Griffiths: Absolutely.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: But before we get to that, we’re going to put a plug in again to say we’re going to be at Education Week at BYU.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: What are the dates there, again?

Scott Woodward: Education Week is August 19th to the 23rd.

Casey Griffiths: 19th through the 23rd.

Scott Woodward: Yes. 2024.

Casey Griffiths: We’re in the Wilkinson Center ballroom.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And we’re doing our—our series on good thinking. So we’re going to be talking a little bit about good thinking in church history and doctrine, which was a series we did a little while ago. It was a ton of fun, and so we hope you’ll join us there.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. We get email feedback from time to time from you listeners, and we love it, that is wonderful, but it would be even an extra cherry on top to actually get to meet you in person, and so if you are in the neighborhood and you want to come by, just say hi, that would be great. If you want to come and listen to our class, that would be even better, but we would love to meet you. So swing on by.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So 1:50 to 2:45 p. m. in the Wilkinson Center ballroom, and then I’m doing a solo series Tuesday through Friday at 9:50, that’s in the Jesse Knight building, and then I’m doing a class on Monday at 9:50 also. That’ll be in the Wilk. So we’d love to meet you in person. We’d love to get your feedback. Come see us at Education Week.

Scott Woodward: Hundred percent. You’re doing three, Casey? That’s—you are an overachiever. Have you always been an overachiever, do you feel like?

Casey Griffiths: No, I’m not an overachiever, Scott. I’m just as lazy as I’ve always been, so . . . I just like doing Education Week. It’s kind of fun. I get to teach—

Scott Woodward: It is fun.

Casey Griffiths: —young adults. It’s nice to teach adult adults. It’s fun.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Have a little variety from—

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: —young adults to adults adults.

Casey Griffiths: That’s right. Grown people. So . . . We’ve got a lot to talk about, so let’s jump into it. We’ve ended our series on the martyrdom, and we’re talking about succession in the presidency.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And the most dramatic instance of succession in the presidency is Brigham Young.

Scott Woodward: Yes.

Casey Griffiths: In fact, do you want to give us kind of a recap where we’ve gone so far in the first two episodes?

Scott Woodward: Yes, I do. We’ve been talking about the aftermath of the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith that occurred on June 27, 1844. This totally rocked the church in lots of ways, not just the pain of the loss of their beloved prophet and assistant president of the church, but also a fear and uncertainty about where to go from here, right? And so in our first episode, we talked about eight possible paths for succession in the wake of the murders of Joseph and Hyrum, and all eight of these paths, Casey, were either explicitly delineated by Joseph or revelation, or were viewed as plausible interpretations of statements Joseph had made or actions he had took. So these are all, like, Joseph-Smith-based potential paths for succession. Eight’s a big number when you think about succession paths, right? Talk about confusing. And so, in no particular order, here they are real quick again. If you want to go in more detail, go back to the first episode, but here are the eight paths: Number one, succession by a counselor in the First Presidency, okay? That would be Sidney Rigdon’s claim. We’ll talk more about that today. Number two, succession through a special appointment. That was the claim of James Strang, Lyman White, and Alpheus Cutler based on the precedent of David Whitmer being appointed to succeed Joseph in case he ever became a fallen prophet. Number three, succession through the office of associate president. That’s Hyrum Smith and Oliver Cowdery. That office dies with Hyrum Smith. Number four, succession by the presiding patriarch. That’s also a position that basically dies with Hyrum Smith, although William Smith tried to weasel in through that path. Number five, succession by the Council of Fifty. Number six, succession by the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. This is the claim of Brigham Young and the Twelve, which we’ll talk more about today. Number seven, succession by three priesthood councils, where not only is the Quorum of the Twelve equal in authority and power to the First Presidency, but so is the Quorum of the Seventy and the standing high councils of the stakes of Zion. And nobody actually appealed to this in terms of the Seventy, but there was an appeal in terms of the presiding high councils of the stakes of Zion by none other than Emma Smith. So that’s interesting. And then number eight, and finally, is succession by a descendant of Joseph Smith. This is the claim for the Community of Christ today, which was initially the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ through Joseph Smith III, who was 11 years old at the time of the martyrdom, and so this was no doubt a hope in Joseph Smith’s heart that his son would eventually succeed him, but there was no immediate path for succession in terms of at his death an 11-year-old would lead the church. Like, that wasn’t in the cards.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: So those are the eight real quick, and each of them represented a pretty tantalizing prospect, but the reality of the situation in 1844 of August is that there were really only two serious options for succession at that time: First option was succession by a counselor in the First Presidency, that’s Sidney Rigdon, and the other was succession by the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, with Brigham Young as its president. And in our last episode, we talked really about the viability of both of these. We really dove into the history of Sidney Rigdon, where he was kind of a shooting star: bright at the beginning, and then he sort of tapered off pretty intensely at the end here. He was very effective in the first season of his assisting Joseph Smith, but after some serious head trauma and other difficulties and trials, his effectiveness starts to wane considerably. And Joseph even tried to get him out of the First Presidency, but the church voted him to stay in, at Hyrum Smith’s proposal. So Joseph got countered, and he says, if you don’t throw him off while I’m with you, you’re going to have to throw him off when I’m gone, and it’s not going to be as easy.

Casey Griffiths: That was prophetic.

Scott Woodward: That was. That was prophetic. And so anyway, we talked about why Sidney was maybe not the best choice and why the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles was more appealing, and so I think we built right up in our last episode to what we want to talk about today.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: So we left off last time with Sidney Rigdon on his way back to Nauvoo from Pittsburgh and other members of the Quorum of the Twelve on their way back to Nauvoo from their various points of dispersion as they’d been out stumping for Joseph Smith for presidency. And in some ways, Casey, they were headed back to Nauvoo on something of a collision course. Is that fair to say?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. There’s going to be a showdown.

Scott Woodward: Showdown.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, so . . .

Scott Woodward: And so that’s what we want to talk about today is the showdown, right?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And by the way, we mentioned those eight methods of succession because each one keeps popping up. Like, the main two that they considered immediately were succession by counselor, that’s going to be Sidney Rigdon, or succession by the Twelve, which is led by Brigham Young. But I was surprised going through the sources this time that that three quorums option kept popping up, too, mostly because William Marks was really involved in a lot of the sort of maneuvering that happens here, and it appears that Emma Smith really liked William Marks, so she’s giving him her support.

Scott Woodward: And he’s the stake president in Nauvoo, correct?

Casey Griffiths: He’s the stake president in Nauvoo, and he’s actually going to be a big player in setting up what becomes the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Known to most people today as Community of Christ, so . . .

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: It seems today, like, man, the Twelve were just a foregone conclusion—that that’s what’s going to happen. When succession happens in the church today, it’s pretty much a well-oiled machine, but in 1844 this was not set down, and there was a lot of anxiety over who was going to lead the church. For instance, James Blakeslee, who is a church member, he lives just a few miles up from Nauvoo at Rock Island, Illinois. He writes a letter during this time where he says, “The Church is left without an earthly head, unless the promise of the Lord shall be fulfilled, which saith that if he removed Joseph, he would appoint another in his stead. But as this has not yet been done, what is the Church to do? Now, sir, if I have been correctly informed, some of the members of the church at Nauvoo want Stephen Markham for their head.” That’s a name you never hear brought up.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: “Others want Sidney Rigdon, others President Marks,” That’s William Marks, “others little Joseph,” meaning Joseph Smith’s son, “others Brigham Young, and others Parley P. Pratt.” You never hear that name brought up.

Scott Woodward: No.

Casey Griffiths: “And if they can all have their choice, we shall soon have a multiplicity of churches of the Latter-day Saints.” That’s a letter he writes in August 1844, right around the time that we’re going to discuss today. So that leads us to the burning question for today’s episode, which is, what caused most of the church, the majority of church members in August 1844, to choose Brigham Young and the Twelve as their leader? So we just spoiled the end. You know who gets chosen to lead the church, but there’s a lot of stuff that happens leading up to this.

Scott Woodward: It’s a big question.

Casey Griffiths: It’s a big question. It’s been explored a lot by Latter-day Saint historian. The historian we’re using primarily today is Ronald Walker, and Ron Walker passed away a few years ago, but he wrote an amazing piece on the succession crisis called “Six Days in August: Brigham Young and the Succession.” It’s available for free. Just Google it along with BYU RSC, and you can read the whole thing on its own along with his footnotes, which are extensive and wonderful. There’s also been some interesting developments, too, because a lot of historians have argued that, you know, history is written by the victors, that we don’t get a lot of Sidney Rigdon’s side of things, but in the last little while, specifically back in 2015, BYU Studies actually published this article by Robin Jensen and Lejean Carruth, because they were able to decipher the notes from a Sidney Rigdon speech that he gave to the members of the church. So Thomas Bullock took notes, but he took them in shorthand, and only a handful of people today know how to translate those shorthand notes, and so if you want to read what Sidney Rigdon actually wrote, this article is also available for free online: “Sidney Rigdon’s Plea to the Saints: Transcription of Thomas Bullock’s Shorthand Notes from August 8, 1844.” Now, we should also mention, too, that there are some historians that cast doubt, not on Brigham Young’s succession but on whether or not anything miraculous happened when Brigham Young spoke to the Saints.

Scott Woodward: Well, there are those who cast doubt on Brigham Young’s succession as well, of course.

Casey Griffiths: I guess there are, but I think everybody kind of agrees that, like, Brigham Young took control—

Scott Woodward: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Casey Griffiths: —whether or not you think he should have or not.

Scott Woodward: Oh, yeah. Okay.

Casey Griffiths: This historian—and the main historian that argues this is Richard Van Wagoner. Richard Van Wagoner wrote a biography of Sidney Rigdon, and what he’s arguing is that Brigham Young seized control, but there was no miraculous experience associated with Brigham Young’s succession, which a common story told in the church that Brigham Young was transfigured when he spoke to the saints on August 8, 1844. Richard Van Wagoner says, no, Brigham Young just outmaneuvered Sidney. There was no spiritual experience that happened. And we’re going to talk about why he makes that argument. The counter to that is a wonderful article by Lynn Watkins Jorgensen and the staff of BYU Studies, where they went out and searched and collected accounts of people that were there on August 8, 1844, and they found 129 accounts and counting. It’s possible there’s more out there. And they published this in the book, Opening the Heavens: Account of Divine Manifestations, which, Scott, in course of my research, I was led back to Doctrine and Covenants Central, our website—

Scott Woodward: Nice.

Casey Griffiths: —where our excellent archivist, Jared Riddick, has actually placed a PDF of this entire book on Doctrine and Covenants Central. So if you go to Doctrine and Covenants Central, you can get Opening the Heavens: Accounts of Divine Manifestations for free.

Scott Woodward: Man.

Casey Griffiths: It’s an excellent book, and not only does it talk about succession, it has a lot of stuff on Book of Mormon translation. It has a lot of stuff on the First Vision and the different accounts of the First Vision. It’s a great, great resource and you can get it for free there.

Scott Woodward: Shout out to Jared Riddick, our favorite archivist.

Casey Griffiths: Go get ’em, Jared. He’s such a good guy. And he’s—he’s constantly, like, talking about the archive, and we want to point people towards the archive because there’s a vast array of resources that Jared works diligently to assemble there.

Scott Woodward: He’s done such a good job.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. Jared’s a great member of the team.

Scott Woodward: Cool. Okay, so those are our sources that we’re going to be drawing from today.

Casey Griffiths: Those are our sources, yeah. Yeah.

Scott Woodward: All right. So how do we want to start?

Casey Griffiths: Well, I mean, the whole thing happens, like, in six days. Sidney Rigdon shows up before Brigham Young gets to Nauvoo, and Ron Walker titled his account of this, “Six Days in August.”

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And so I think we’re just going to go through each day, one by one.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: But before we do that, we’ve got to kind of set the scene, which we did a lot in the last episode, but now we’re going to get into the specifics, so let’s dive into it.

Scott Woodward: Now, Casey, we’ve discussed a lot of important church history events in a lot of different series here on Church History Matters, but it’s possible. I’m not saying it’s true, but it’s possible that what happens in these six days could be the most critical six days in the history of the church.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Tell me your thoughts on that. Do you think that’s accurate?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, and we’re going to return to this point again and again, but it’s not just because of they’re deciding who’s going to lead the church.

Scott Woodward: Mm-hmm.

Casey Griffiths: They’re deciding what kind of church it’s going to be.

Scott Woodward: That’s so big. That’s so huge.

Casey Griffiths: That’s huge, right? There’s a lot of indications that Sidney Rigdon and William Marks specifically wanted to sort of go back to the way things were in Kirtland, or maybe even earlier than that. That they wanted sort of an earlier version of the church.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Brigham Young and the Twelve were committed to the whole set of revelations that have been revealed in Nauvoo, which included a lot of really amazing things like temple work, work for the dead.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: A lot of controversial things, like plural marriage and eternal marriage and second anointing, and this honestly is the separation point for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that we’re part of, and a lot of the 1844 break-offs, like Community of Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ Strangites, or the Church of Jesus Christ Bickertonites, that sort of believe in an earlier version of the Church, so that’s what’s at stake here, too, is everything that’s been revealed in Nauvoo and some things that really do separate us from other branches of the Restoration that trace themselves back to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

Scott Woodward: So it’s a bold statement to say that what we’re talking about today could be one of the most critical moments in the history of the church, but I think it’s defensible—bold, but defensible—because of what you’re saying. Yeah, it’s not just who leads the church, it’s what kind of church will this be?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: The who and the what are inextricably tied.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Want to kind of frame it that way. This is a big deal, folks, so . . .

Casey Griffiths: Okay.

Scott Woodward: Let’s dive into day one, then, of these six days, shall we?

Casey Griffiths: Okay.

Scott Woodward: So the prelude to these six days is this: so Sidney Rigdon had just arrived in Pittsburgh on June 28, actually, the day after the murder of Joseph and Hyrum. Okay? And he didn’t know about it then because news traveled way, way slower back in those days, but within a week, Elder Jedediah M. Grant sent Sidney an extra edition of the Nauvoo Neighbor, which detailed the murders, and then followed up with a personal visit to Sidney. At first Sidney said he wanted to work with the Twelve to figure out the course forward, but other than John Taylor and Willard Richards, the Twelve at that time were scattered throughout the United States, engaged in what they called stumping for Joseph’s presidential campaign, out promoting Joseph for president. Sidney at first asked the apostles to actually join him in Pittsburgh on their way back to Nauvoo, but Brigham Young declined, telling Sidney that he wanted to get back to Nauvoo as quickly as possible. And there are some indications in their letters back and forth that they both recognized a brewing controversy of succession, and they’re already wary of each other, it seems. And so while Brigham Young gathers the apostles, Sidney sets out beeline for Nauvoo, where he arrives on August 2, 1844. That’s kind of the prelude, right? So the Twelve are on their way. Sidney beelines it. He beats the Twelve there. What happens next, Casey?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So Sidney gets to Nauvoo before Brigham Young, but not before all the apostles. Remember—

Scott Woodward: Oh, good point.

Casey Griffiths: —there’s two apostles that are in Nauvoo.

Scott Woodward: Yes.

Casey Griffiths: One of them’s John Taylor, who’s really badly wounded from Carthage Jail. The other one is Willard Richards, who basically, for the five weeks when they’re getting everybody back to Nauvoo, leads the community there. He even signed some of his letters, “Acting President,” during this time, but Sidney makes it before Brigham does. When he gets there, however, two more apostles have made it to Nauvoo. That’s Parley P. Pratt and George A. Smith.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Parley and Sidney have this long relationship going back, even before either one of them were members of the church, they knew each other. They were preachers in Ohio. And so when Parley hears that Sidney Rigdon has arrived in town, he goes and he finds Sidney at—basically to, like, try and get these meetings going. Let’s discuss what we’re going to do. Sidney, however, according to Parley, was surrounded by kind of well wishers, people shaking his hand, welcoming back, good to see you. So Parley actually kind of defers and says, you’re busy today, we will not interrupt you today, but tomorrow morning, the few of the Twelve who are here will want to meet with you and sit down in council together. And they agree the next morning, they’re going to meet at John Taylor’s home at 8 a. m. This is going to be Sunday. And actually, John Taylor’s home becomes sort of, like, home base for the apostles, and the reason primarily is John Taylor isn’t very mobile at this point.

Scott Woodward: Less mobile.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, so they’re deferring to him. They’re coming to his home because it’s really, really still hard for him to get up and about with the wounds he’s had in Carthage Jail. So that’s just day one. Parley P. Pratt reaches out to Sidney Rigdon, says, let’s meet tomorrow morning at 8 a. m. Let’s start conversations and start talking things over. That’s day one, August 3. So day two.

Scott Woodward: Day two of the succession crisis: Sunday, August 4, 1844. The apostles in Nauvoo assembled at John Taylor’s home, those apostles who were in Nauvoo, those four you mentioned.

Casey Griffiths: Mm-hmm. Those four, yeah.

Scott Woodward: And Sidney had agreed to meet them, but he doesn’t show up. So they send Parley out to go seek him out, and Parley finds him out talking to a neighbor not far from John Taylor’s home. Parley thought the conversation was aimless, he says. He’s like, Sidney, come on. Come to the meeting. But Sidney refused to be pulled away. And so eventually Parley was able to pull Sidney away from the conversation, but then Sidney says, you know what? I have to be somewhere else. He produces another excuse here. He said that a large crowd was gathering and Sidney wanted to preach to them. And so he does not come to John Taylor’s home. Parley felt the apostles were left to, he says, do their own counseling, and he felt that Sidney had deliberately avoided meeting with them. He felt snubbed. But it’s actually true that Sidney actually goes and preaches to a crowd. Some sources talk about the crowd being quite large. Sidney chose a text from Isaiah 55:9, the line that says, “my ways are higher than your ways.” And it’s to that crowd that he announced that he had received something of an extraordinary vision while in the upper room of his lodging in Pittsburgh, he said. He announced some strange things, actually. Okay, see, here’s one. He announced that, “He was the identical man that the ancient prophets had sung about, wrote and rejoiced over, and that he was sent to do the identical work that had been the theme of all the prophets in every preceding generation.” That’s weird. I actually remember Parley P. Pratt quipping that he was the man, speaking of himself, Parley P. Pratt. He said, “I am the man that no prophets have ever talked about.” That was his quip. Anyway, William Clayton, who was there in that meeting reported that Sidney, “related a vision which the Lord had shown him concerning the situation of the church and said there must be a guardian appointed to build the church up to Joseph as he has begun it.” Others remember Sidney saying that he had seen Joseph in the heavens and said that he, Sidney, now held the keys of this dispensation. One report of the sermon says that Rigdon told the crowd that he would now stand as a God to the people, like Moses, and he would preserve the church as Joseph had begun it. There’s some other interesting things, like—

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, can I talk about this? This is my favorite part. Orson Hyde records this, but Sidney Rigdon had a real kind of, like, fixation on, like, the end days and, like, the bloody end days, and Orson Hyde reports that part of Sidney Rigdon’s speech was him talking about, like, the wars of the last days. And his quote, he said that Sidney Rigdon said, “I am going to fight a real bloody battle with sword and with gun. I will fight the battles of the Lord. I will also cross the Atlantic, encounter the Queen’s forces and overcome them, plant the American Standard on English ground, and then march to the palace of Her Majesty,” this is Queen Victoria, “and demand a portion of her riches and dominions, which if she refuse, I will take the little madam by the nose and lead her out, and she shall have no power to help herself. If I do not do this, the Lord never spake by mortal.” Like, whoa.

Scott Woodward: Oh, boy. This is weird.

Casey Griffiths: And he’s talking to an audience of mostly British converts.

Scott Woodward: Oh my gosh.

Casey Griffiths: And Queen Victoria, by the way, was brand new. She’d just barely been coronated while the apostles were actually in England at the time.

Scott Woodward: Seems so random and, like, not relevant to the context of August 4, right? Like, it seems so random and nonsensical really.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So, I’m sorry: that’s my favorite sort of chunk that comes out of this, is he’s going to lead Queen Victoria by the nose and force her to bow before him.

Scott Woodward: So weird.

Casey Griffiths: Pretty amazing.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Well, okay, so after this speech on August 4, Sidney and his allies made another dramatic move while Elder Charles C. Rich was preaching. He’s interrupted by William Marks. So William Marks is totally on Sidney’s side here. This is the stake president in Nauvoo, and he declared, interrupting Elder Rich’s preaching, he declared that on Thursday morning, August 8, President Rigdon would hold a special meeting of the Saints to consider his claims. Rigdon wanted the question of succession settled within four days, basically. And so Rigdon calls for this meeting without consulting any of the members of the Twelve. Parley P. Pratt, who was in the meeting, tried to challenge William Marks. He asked him to wait until the arrival of all the apostles. Marks said, well, Sidney actually wants to hold a meeting on Tuesday, the August 6, but he’s giving you two extra days because he needs to go attend to some family business in Pittsburgh that requires his immediate attention, and he can’t go any further than August 8. Okay? Now that’s deeply unsettling to a number of people. William Clayton, who was there in the meeting, he wrote, “I do not feel satisfied with this move because it is universally understood that the Twelve have been sent for and are expected here every day, and it seems a plot has been laid for the Saints to take advantage of their situation. So he thinks it’s kind of devious, what’s happening here. It seems like Sidney’s trying to hurry things along before all the Twelve Apostles have returned to Nauvoo, and that’s the end of day two.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So Sidney kind of makes the first move here. He refuses to meet with the apostles that are there, and he tries to arrange this meeting, it seems like in the hope that he can just be sustained as the leader of the church before the apostles show up.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And it also seems like he’s working in collaboration with William Marks, and he’s thinking, let’s just—I’ll get this done.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: So he’s supposed to meet with the apostles. He instead goes to this meeting and announces he’s supposed to lead the church, and then when the apostles try to counter that, like the apostles that are in Nauvoo, he basically says, no, you know, I don’t—I don’t have time for this.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: We’re going to move ahead. Like, I’ve got things I’ve got to do. So it seems like he’s trying to sort of sweep in, take over before they can fully gather the quorums of the church. So he’s the one that kind of causes the succession crisis, I guess you’d say. If he hadn’t made this move, it’s possible there would have been calm discussion over what was supposed to happen, but he immediately sort of, like, blows everything up by saying, no, I’m the person that’s supposed to lead the church.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. It does seem like he is trying to take advantage of the chaos of the moment before level heads can figure things out here.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And by the way, William Clayton says that he learned later from Alpheus Cutler that Sidney Rigdon had planned to be president, and he planned to appoint William Marks as Church Patriarch.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And so you see this interesting alliance between Sidney and William Marks going on here. Interesting.

Casey Griffiths: Just for reference, too, patriarch was the position that Hyrum Smith held, and so it was kind of like Rigdon was saying, I’ll take over, and you’re going to be the Hyrum to my Joseph, basically. That’s why the two of them are in close collaboration here together.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: All right. So day three.

Scott Woodward: Day three.

Casey Griffiths: Day three is Monday, August 5. The apostles are kind of floored that Sidney makes this move, and so they continue trying to have a meeting with him. They actually go to him, and they meet with him, Parley P. Pratt, Willard Richards, George A. Smith. There’s even one source that says that John Taylor went to meet with him, which is extraordinary if that’s true, because he’s still in bad shape. They also bring along Newell K. Whitney, who’s the presiding bishop, and Amasa Lyman, who had been chosen to serve as a counselor in the First Presidency. So they’re trying to line up all the church authorities that are in town to basically say, hey, before we do anything, we’ve got to sit together and talk about this, and everybody agrees to meet at John Taylor’s home in the evening. So this is Monday evening, and according to people that are in the meeting, Sidney Rigdon shows up at this meeting, and he sort of, like, talks very boldly, and he’s pacing back and forth in front of the apostles. He starts to, like, spout off all these concerns, like, we’ve got to do this soon because there’s going to be anti-Mormons elected in Hancock County. That’s going to cause more problems for us. And then according to someone that’s in the meeting, he makes this statement: he told them, “You lack a great leader,” and said, “You want a head, and unless you unite upon that head, you’re blown to the four winds. The anti-Mormons will carry the election. A guardian must be appointed.” This is a word that comes up a lot in Rigdon’s succession claims is that he wanted to be the guardian of the church.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: So this really doesn’t convince the apostles, and they continue to try and say, all right, fine, but let’s put off any meetings where decisions can be made until the rest of the apostles can make it back from their missions. But the only thing Sidney Rigdon will promise to do is he’s going to change the meeting that he announced for Thursday into a prayer meeting for discussion and interchange of thought and feeling to warm up each other’s hearts. And he promises them that it’s not going to be a business meeting to make binding decisions. So they do get him to back off a little bit on that score, but they’re still really worried that he’s trying to take over before anybody can get back, and Rigdon’s arguing in return, no, we’ve got to do something right now, or we’re going to lose everything because opposition’s rising. So that’s day three of the succession crisis.

Scott Woodward: Day three. Okay. It seems interesting that Sidney is tying local politics in with the necessity of having him as the guardian of the church. He says, if I’m not the guardian and you’re not united around me, we’re going to be blown to the four winds by the anti-Mormons who carry the election. I don’t see the connection between him being the leader of the church and being able to forestall or combat the anti-Mormons who are going to “carry the election.” Just seems these points are not connected, but he thought they were somehow, and . . .

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, he’s kind of trying to make that argument of, well, we need strong leadership. Like, there’s stuff that’s going to happen, and if we can’t coalesce around one person, then we’re going to get wiped out in the elections, and then who knows what will happen next if the anti-Mormons sweep into power. That’s kind of his argument.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Yeah. Super interesting. Alright, day four. Tuesday, August 6, 1844. On Tuesday Sidney, once again, preaches a sermon. We don’t know the audience on this occasion, but Sidney spoke about mobs coming to attack Nauvoo. He recalls the persecution of the saints in Missouri, and, again, seems like he is leaning into the fears of people about what might happen, right? He insists to this group, apparently, that he wanted no office in the kingdom of God, even if it were offered to him. Instead, he says he would be a constable upon the earth rather than a priestly king. He’s just kind of going back and forth on these things. I want to be the guardian of the church. I want to be the head. Everyone should coalesce around me. I had a vision that I’m to be the guy. And then in this meeting, he’s saying, I don’t even want an office in the kingdom of God, even if it’s offered. I’ll be a constable. So interesting. That evening, this is a big moment, the evening of Tuesday, August 6, Brigham Young and four other apostles arrive: Heber C. Kimball, Orson Pratt, Lyman White, and Wilford Woodruff. They arrive in Nauvoo on the steamboat St. Croix. They had made this marathon trip from Boston to Buffalo, New York, across Lake Erie to Detroit, and then down to Chicago. They had made the 160-mile trip across Illinois to Nauvoo in just 48 hours, which before the days of automobiles and airplanes, that’s something significant right there. 48-hour trip, 160 miles. Elder Woodruff recalled, “We were hailed with joy by all the citizens we met,” when they stepped off from the wharf into Nauvoo. Yet despite this happy occasion of meeting friends and family again, Woodruff also felt something else, he said. “When we landed in the city, there was a deep gloom that seemed to rest over the city of Nauvoo which we never experienced before.” So he notices that Nauvoo is not just a place of grief and sorrow, but it also seems to be a place of fear about the future, of where things are going.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: So the major thing that happens on day four is that these four members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles arrive, and especially Brigham Young, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And what this means, Casey, which is a big deal, is that now we have a majority of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in Nauvoo, right? We have a quorum.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: We have a quorum.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, so the Apostles get into town on day four. That leads into day five of the succession crisis, which is Wednesday, August 7, 1844. And most of this day, the apostles are kind of huddled together. They meet at John Taylor’s house. Like you mentioned, this is the first time in several months that they’ve had a full quorum.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Or at least a majority, that means seven of the apostles, to discuss what’s going on. This is the first time they’ve really had a group meeting since Joseph and Hyrum were killed, where they could talk in person and sort of share their feelings. And it seems like, even though we don’t have a lot of good records about what they discussed, it’s likely that they’re talking about what kind of church it’s going to be. This is the way Ron Walker phrases it: he says, “The succession of 1844 was not simply about appointing a man or a group of men to lead the church; it was about what kind of church would survive.” And the two issues are kind of hand in hand. Like we mentioned, there was a lot of fear, especially among people in the Quorum of the Anointed. We’ve talked about the Quorum of the Anointed in several episodes. This was the group of people that had received the temple ordinances, that had been endowed.

Scott Woodward: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: They’d been sealed to their spouses. Many of them had entered into eternal marriages and plural marriages, and there was a lot of fear that Sidney Rigdon and William Marks wanted to take the church back. For instance, William Clayton, who’s one of Joseph’s personal secretaries, and he’s very closely aligned with the Twelve, said if William Marks is appointed trustee, because they were talking about a leader for the church and a trustee-in-trust that would handle the financial matters of the church.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: William Clayton wrote, if Marks is appointed trustee, our spiritual blessings will be destroyed inasmuch as he is not favorable to the most important matters. And Clayton doesn’t spell out exactly what that means, but it’s very, very likely that what he means is the temple ordinances.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: This new system of sealing, this new system of family connection is going to go away. In fact, Ron Walker kind of speculated that all the stuff that was put in Nauvoo, the temple ceremonies, and other things, too—work for the dead, the Relief Society, the Council of Fifty, prayer circles—a lot of these things that we take for granted in the church today would probably go away, and you can actually see that in what happens with the reorganized church, because William Marks plays a huge role in organizing the reorganized church, and they’re basically—I mean, I know people from the RLDS tradition that will basically say, yeah, we’re the church without Nauvoo. Like—

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: —they didn’t like the stuff in Nauvoo, and you can see that in the RLDS tradition there’s still a temple, but they don’t do work for the dead in it. They don’t believe in or practice eternal marriage. They’ve rejected most of the stuff that was received in Nauvoo. That seems to be what William Marks’s vision was, and it seems like Sidney Rigdon was more than willing to go along with that.

Scott Woodward: And I think that’s borne out in terms of Sidney Rigdon, because we know what his church looked like. Later on, Sidney does actually start a church, maybe two churches, you could argue.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: One he calls the Church of Christ, and then he reorganizes it decades later, after its collapse in 1847. It’s called The Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion from, like, 1863 to 1884, and in both of those versions of his church, neither of them had the Nauvoo doctrines or practices, so I think Ron Walker’s hypothesis here is borne out in what Sidney actually does when he does organize a church, so . . .

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And, I mean, the perspective of the apostles, on the other hand, is that this is Joseph’s inner circle while he’s in Nauvoo, and they have already committed to these teachings. They have a testimony of these teachings. They know that Joseph and Hyrum endorsed these teachings. And it seems like, you know, they’ve already paid kind of the emotional and psychological cost of adjusting to that, especially something really challenging like plural marriage, and they’re not going to go back. So the apostles, in their meeting, decide that they’re going to hold a general assembly within the week. In fact, they aim for Tuesday, August 13 at 10 a. m., and there, they’re going to put forward their claims and ask for a formal ratifying vote. They also make two other decisions. They wanted a semi-public airing of Rigdon’s claims, they wanted to hear what Sidney Rigdon had to say, and they scheduled a meeting with Sidney Rigdon in the Seventies Hall later on that day. And so they give Sidney an opportunity to kind of speak his piece, explain what he thinks is the right thing to do, and then at 4 p. m. that day, they meet with Sidney Rigdon. Now, we don’t have complete minutes of the meeting, but several people that were in the meeting with Sidney Rigdon left behind their own accounts, most prominently Wilford Woodruff. And Wilford Woodruff’s papers are available. You can go and actually look this up in his journal, if you want to, but they meet with Sidney, they ask about the vision that he shared with everybody. Sidney, according to Wilford Woodruff, says it was not an open vision, but it was a stirring that had come into his mind and was a kind of continuation of the vision that he and Joseph had had in 1832. This is Doctrine and Covenants 76, the vision of the three degrees of glory. So Sidney’s saying it was a continuation of that vision. William Clayton, who’s also in the meeting, he wrote, “it was shown to him,” meaning Sidney Rigdon, “that this church must be built up to Joseph, and that all the blessings we receive must come through Joseph. He had been ordained spokesman to Joseph, and he must come to Nauvoo and see that the church was governed in a proper manner.” And so Sidney’s tying it to Joseph. It seems like he’s making a kind of case that Joseph will lead the church from beyond the veil, but that he’s going to act as a spokesman like he’s always done before, and the apostles aren’t really blown away. Wilford Woodruff said that it was a long story, and he calls Sidney’s vision a second-class vision.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: That’s the wording in his journal.

Scott Woodward: Such a great line. It was a second-class vision.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, it was a second-class vision.

Scott Woodward: Only apostles can, like, assess one another’s visions in this way, that that was kind of a second-class vision.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And it does seem like once they press Sidney on it, he’s kind of like, yeah, I don’t know if it was an open vision.

Scott Woodward: More like a stirring. It was more like a stirring that had come to my mind. Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, it was like a feeling, that kind of thing.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: So William Clayton also says that once Sidney Rigdon had shared his vision, Brigham Young stands up and sort of just bluntly, like, puts everything on the line. William Clayton said, “Brigham said he did not care who led the church if God said so, even if it was old Ann Lee.” That’s referring to the leader of the Shakers.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: “But he said he must know that God said so. He said he had the keys and the means of knowing the mind of God on the subject.” And so you’ve got Rigdon on one side, saying, I’m supposed to lead because I was Joseph’s spokesman. You’ve got Brigham saying, well, I have the keys, and I think I can discern who’s going to lead, and it’s clear that there’s a conflict set up here.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Brigham Young doesn’t accept Sidney Rigdon’s claims, and Sidney Rigdon is trying to press ahead. And we don’t know from the notes of the meeting if they all agreed, like, oh, in one week, let’s vote on this. Let’s present our case to the church. But it seems like that was the plan that the apostles were set to is, okay, let’s take a week to discuss this, and then we’ll have an open vote among the members of the church in one week. They’re aiming for August 13, but instead everything happens the next day, August 8, 1844, day six.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Okay, before we go on to day six, can we just take out a metaphorical highlighter and just highlight really boldly how important it is, what you were talking about earlier, Casey, that concern here, as Ron Walker, I guess he’s the one that brought it up, is not just who will lead the church, but what kind of church will survive. Like, the stakes here could not be higher. Anyone but the twelve apostles is going to abandon the temple, Casey. They’re going to abandon eternal marriage. They’re going to abandon all of those ordinances. Like, for instance, William Marks, it is said of him that he, “cared little for the ordinances of the temple.” Yeah, when the RLDS church comes about, Joseph Smith III does nothing with the temple. It’s true Community of Christ does have a temple in Independence, Missouri, but they do not use that temple for ordinances. That is basically church headquarters, right? With offices for leadership and an auditorium to have meetings, but there is nothing of the Nauvoo temple ordinances that is done in that temple. James Strang said that the temple was a “monument to materialism.” Sidney Rigdon, like was mentioned, he never pursues anything temple-related at all. Really, like, the stakes here are temple or no temple. Like, if you go with the Twelve, then you’re going with the Nauvoo practices and doctrines. If you do not go with the 12, you will not be left with anything that looks like the Nauvoo church. It’s going to be a Kirtland church.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Or a New York church. And so, again, it’s odd that each of these other claims to succession would neglect the temple like that because of how obviously vitally important the temple was to Joseph Smith, right? For anyone to claim to be his successor and then to ignore or belittle the importance of the temple, I think, is to immediately call into question their legitimacy. I mean, that’s just . . . The Nauvoo temple’s right there. It’s rising. It’s obviously a Joseph Smith project.

Casey Griffiths: And I agree with you, and I find myself always taking the contrary position, but just to speak on their behalf.

Scott Woodward: Yes, please, please, please.

Casey Griffiths: It feels like the thing that caused them to reject the temple was that they associated it with plural marriage.

Scott Woodward: Totally.

Casey Griffiths: That they don’t like plural marriage, and they see eternal marriage and sealing and all that—now, there’s an argument that it’s more than that, too, because none of them practice baptism for the dead either.

Scott Woodward: Right.

Casey Griffiths: Except for the Cutlerites, though the RLDS church at least recognizes that as a legitimate practice. They’ll just basically say, we just decided not to do it, essentially.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: But, yeah, this idea of sealing, of ordinances that go beyond this life, is tied up in the temple, but for them it’s also tied to plural marriage, which they find very difficult, very controversial.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, a hundred percent. And you and I have been in meeting with our kind of cousins of the Restoration, right? And I remember one of them saying to us that they felt like Joseph had become a fallen prophet after Missouri. And this fallen prophet idea comes up a lot, that he was legitimate in New York. He was legitimate in Kirtland, Missouri time period. But after that, the fact that he doesn’t establish Zion as the Lord had commanded him to, etc. were evidences that he was a fallen prophet. Now, of course, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles cannot get behind the idea of Joseph conducting a fallen ministry the last few years of his life. Like, that’s out of the question completely for them, so like you mentioned, they are all in. There’s no turning back for the Quorum of the Twelve. Like, it’s temple and polygamy or bust. Like, it’s all of it, right? It’s all of it or none of it, and they are all in here. So I just wanted to metaphorically highlight that because I think that is a super huge piece to this puzzle in terms of understanding, like, what’s at stake here. It’s kind of a big deal in terms of the destiny and direction of this church. So there you go. That’s the end of day five.

Casey Griffiths: Well said.

Scott Woodward: Okay, day six.

Casey Griffiths: Day six.

Scott Woodward: So by Thursday, August 8, this so-called succession crisis comes to a head here. The apostles had scheduled a private meeting for 9 a. m. They believed Sidney’s meeting would take place about an hour later, though there may have been some confusion over the time of Sidney’s meeting. There’s also confusion over what the purpose of Sidney’s meeting was anymore, right? Because he said it was going to be a prayer meeting, but then turns out maybe not. Also, Brigham Young doesn’t show to that morning meeting. Ron Walker thinks it might be because of his exhaustion and stress the past month finally catching up to him. We’re not sure. But by mid-morning Brigham does come out, and he sees people streaming into a grove where the saints held their public meetings, and he realized that this was Sidney’s meeting. And there at that meeting, Sidney spoke for an hour and a half. This is the meeting where, until recently, we didn’t have actually a good recording of what he said, but as you mentioned, Robin Jensen and Lejean Carruth has translated the shorthand notes taken by Thomas Bullock in that meeting. Do you want to review quickly, Casey, what we now know from those notes of Thomas Bullock about what Sidney said there?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And the notes are still choppy. Like, translating shorthand isn’t an exact science, and Lejean Carruth is about the only person I know that can do it.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: But according to the notes of the meeting, Sidney kind of stressed this idea again, that Joseph is still the leader of the church. For instance, he said the mob had no power to take away his authority. He said the Smiths maintained their authority, and they ever on have the priesthood and will hold it in all eternity, which I don’t know if we disagree with him there, but it seems like he’s using it to kind of push the idea that the First Presidency still exists, therefore his authority still exists. He spoke of the potential of the church to be “one grand kingdom to put an end to strifes and bloodshed and war, and though the church had been robbed of their leader, he conferred every power that was necessary to carry the kingdom on and place it precisely on the tenets that Jehovah had given him. Rigdon sort of saw Joseph’s influence coming from beyond the grave and said, “I view Joseph as sitting in heaven with power to make himself known to anyone,” and then he starts talking about how the authority is in the church, and he even sort of kind of makes an outreach to the Quorum of the Twelve. He says, “I have the fullest belief that every man will stand in his own place and stand in his own calling.” So, again, he’s emphasizing there’s been no big changes. Joseph is still leading the church. That means by kind of default, he’s leader because he’s first counselor.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And he said that the mobs don’t have power to destroy Nauvoo. He said that peace would come for a season, and then this is kind of a summary: he said, I should be a spokesman for our prophet who has been taken from us.

Scott Woodward: Oh, there’s the rub right there, right?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: I will be the spokesman.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. He’s using this, again, to push to the people his position okay? And in the middle of this, Brigham Young shows up. This is kind of the big, dramatic moment, alright? Brigham Young realizes what’s happening, and he gets up on the stand, and he inserts himself and says, “I will manage the voting,” so—

Scott Woodward: Ah, shoot.

Casey Griffiths: It seemed like, according to Brigham Young, Sidney was kind of leading up to a vote without the Twelve there, and Brigham Young sort of strides onto the stand and says, “I will manage this voting for Elder Rigdon. He does not preside here.” And then he says, “This child,” referring to himself, meaning Brigham Young, “will manage this flock for a season.” And then Brigham Young says, we’re going too fast. He complained of a hurrying spirit. He said, “The true organization of the church requires formal voting by the people in a special seating arrangement,” and seeing that Sidney is the one who’s pressing and pressing, Brigham basically says, okay, we’ll meet at 2 p. m. today, same place. Everybody come back, and we’ll decide who the leader of the church is going to be. So Brigham basically calls Sidney’s bluff. He shows up and says, alright, before you call for a vote, we have to have all the church assembled. We have to have formal authorities. I’ll lead the voting, but let’s get everybody here, because he sort of seems to be implying that Sidney was sort of surreptitiously organizing this meeting to just pass the vote and then take it to the apostles and tell them what had happened.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: So Brigham Young suggests—

Scott Woodward: Let’s meet in the afternoon.

Casey Griffiths: —let’s meet in the afternoon, and at 2 p. m., they meet—sort of. It gets complicated.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. So in that meeting, afternoon meeting is—apparently it starts, like, 45 minutes late.

Casey Griffiths: They have to get everybody together, so they send out, like, the general alarm. Everybody, we’re meeting at 2 p. m. We’re going to figure this out. It just happens all of a sudden.

Scott Woodward: Kind of this ad hoc, extemporaneous meeting. Get everyone there you can, so they start at more like 2:45. Sidney’s on the stand, Brigham’s on the stand, at least seven members of the Twelve are on the stand, along with William Marks, the stake president, and the Nauvoo high council. This gathering has all the high priests of the church, Seventies, elders, and Aaronic Priesthood that were in Nauvoo at the time. Some estimates say that the crowd consisted of about 6,000 church members, or more. We don’t have a complete account of what Brigham Young said at that meeting, although Wilford Woodruff and others took notes. Here’s a few things we can piece together from those notes: So one of the things Brigham says is he doesn’t want to take care of this business so close to the murders—

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: —if he could help it, but it seems like it is essential to do so. There was no shorthand reporter here to capture everything that was said, but we do get sporadic phrases and sentences. I want to share a few of those with you, as far as what we have of Brigham Young’s speech. He said, and I’m pulling this from the History of the Church, Volume 7. He says, among other things, this: “Here is President Rigdon, who was counselor to Joseph. I ask, where are Joseph and Hyrum? They are gone beyond the veil. And if Elder Rigdon wants to act as his counselor, he must go beyond the veil where he is.” Ah, shoot. He says, “The twelve are appointed by the finger of God. Here is Brigham,” speaking of himself. “Have his knees ever faltered? Have his lips ever quivered? Here is Heber and the rest of the Twelve, an independent body, who have the keys of the priesthood, the keys of the kingdom of God to deliver to all the world. This is true, so help me God. They,” meaning the Twelve, “stand next to Joseph and are as the First Presidency of the church. He’s invoking that D&C 107 passage we talked about, verse 23-24. And then he says, “Elder Rigdon claims to be spokesman to the prophet.” Right? And that’s what he had said earlier that morning. “Very well. He was,” says Brigham. “But can he now act in that office? If he wants now to be a spokesman to the prophet, he must go to the other side of the veil, for the prophet is there, but Elder Rigdon is here. Why will Elder Rigdon be a fool?” he asks. He says, “Now, if you want Sidney Rigdon to lead you, or anybody else, you are welcome to them, but I tell you in the name of the Lord that no man can put another between the Twelve and the Prophet Joseph. Why? Because Joseph was their file leader, and he has committed into their hands the keys of the kingdom in this last dispensation for all the world.” This is Brigham Young’s major point of contention, right? That the twelve have the keys. You know, think back to the last charge meeting. We talked about that last episode, how significant the last charge meeting was, and it seems to slowly dawn on the twelve how significant that was. And now Brigham Young gets it, and he’s explaining this very clearly to this crowd. From the, again, the piecemeal notes that we have, that seems to be his major contention here.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. At the end of the meeting, some surprising thing happened. Like, Sidney Rigdon actually gets up and kind of makes a feeble defense, but he asks W. W. Phelps if he’ll speak on his behalf, and W. W. Phelps goes up, and he actually endorses the Twelve, so—

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Oops!

Casey Griffiths: —the guy that’s supposed to defend Sidney is like, nah, actually, I think the Twelve should lead the church.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And then right after that, Parley P. Pratt, who’s incredibly popular among the Saints, speaks as well on behalf of the Twelve.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: A vote is called for, and the people overwhelmingly choose Brigham Young. Like, that’s one thing that nobody disputes about this meeting, is that when the vote was taken, Brigham Young was chosen as the leader of the church. So—

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: —this is kind of unique, because most of our voting in church meetings is sustaining. We’re supporting a decision that’s been made in councils.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: This was an actual vote of who was supposed to lead the church, and I don’t think anybody disputes that Brigham Young was the person chosen in that meeting, Brigham Young and the Twelve, specifically.

Scott Woodward: But what is disputed is whether or not Brigham Young was transfigured before the crowd, right?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: This is the point of contention here, and most members of the church have probably heard something about this.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: That Brigham Young kind of took on the look or at least the sound of Joseph Smith, almost to a T. Some people said they couldn’t tell the difference, et cetera. But that’s recently been contested. Why has that been contested, Casey?

Casey Griffiths: Partially it’s because of, you know, nerdy historian stuff, but Richard Van Wagoner, we mentioned him in the first of the episode, wrote a biography of Sidney Rigdon, but even before that, he wrote an article, and, among other things, he said this: “When the 8th of August, 1844, is stripped of emotional overlay, there is not a shred of irrefutable contemporary evidence to support the occurrence of a mystical event either in the morning or the afternoon gatherings of that day. A more likely scenario was that it was the force of Young’s commanding presence, his well-timed arrival at the morning meeting, and perhaps a bit of theatrical mimicry. So, I mean, on the one hand, he’s just saying that Brigham Young’s timing was better, that he was a more forceful leader than Sidney Rigdon, but he’s also making a little charge here that Brigham deliberately, like—

Scott Woodward: Impersonated Joseph Smith.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And by the way, you know, Van Wagoner is correct that one of the difficult things with this as a historian is that nobody does record a miracle that day. Wilford Woodruff, for instance, records the entire meeting, but he doesn’t say anything about transfiguration.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Neither does anybody else who’s at the meeting on that day.

Scott Woodward: Isn’t that kind of suspicious?

Casey Griffiths: It’s a little suspicious. There could be reasons for that, but at the same time, too, I think that Van Wagoner goes too far in saying, well, that means there’s no evidence, and he also really sets the bar here high by saying there’s no irrefutable contemporary evidence.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Because there is some stuff that’s fairly contemporary.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. There is evidence that needs to be considered here.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. The other thing, too, is if there’s not any contemporary accounts, we have to weigh the fact that there are a ton, a ton, of non-contemporary accounts. Like I said, BYU Studies and Lynn Jorgensen tracked down 129 different accounts of people saying they saw something. But here’s the thing: the accounts aren’t uniform. They don’t all say the same thing, and so it seems like it was a collection of individual spiritual experiences and not something that the whole crowd witnessed. Like, some people talk about it in very simple terms. Some people talk about it in really grand spiritual terms. One person who didn’t account of any kind of special miracle happening was Brigham Young himself. Brigham Young wrote his own account of what happened in the meeting. Here’s what he wrote: he said, “I rose and spoke to the people. My heart was swollen with compassion towards them. And by the power of the Holy Ghost, even the spirit of the prophets, I was enabled to comfort the hearts of the saints. In the afternoon, according to my request, the people assembled by the thousands. I laid before them the order of the church and the power of the priesthood. After a long and laborious talk of about two hours in the open air with the wind blowing, the church was of one heart and one mind: They wanted the Twelve to lead the church, as Brother Joseph had done in his day.” So Brigham Young doesn’t record anything happening. But, again, Van Wagoner’s pushing the point too hard to say nobody recorded anything or that we have to have irrefutable evidence that this happened. It seems like what the accounts kind of go for is that there were individual spiritual experiences and people wrote them down, but not on that day, but they did write them down, and a lot of people wrote them down—

Scott Woodward: Later.

Casey Griffiths: —at least so many people that we can’t easily dismiss this as something that just was an emotional response, which is what Van Wagoner’s kind of trying to make it sound like.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Okay, so Brigham Young, from his own account, doesn’t seem to say anything specific about any miracle, although he says that he spoke by the spirit of the prophets. I mean, that’s the closest thing, right, in his account, that says anything that might be kind of even close to what others will later say, but where do the accounts start, Casey, that Brigham actually looked like Joseph or sounded like Joseph or both? Like, how long in the historical record do we have to go before we find our first account of that? If there’s no contemporary accounts, what’s the next best thing?

Casey Griffiths: So when we say contemporary, there aren’t any from that day that mention a transfiguration.

Scott Woodward: Okay.

Casey Griffiths: But as early as September, so this happens in August.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: As early as September, people start mentioning this happening, and it’s sometimes in less grand terms than we’re used to. For instance, in September the Times and Seasons talks about the mantle of Joseph falling on Brigham Young. And that’s usually how the early accounts sort of describe it, is, oh, it’s just clear that the mantle, that, like, using that phraseology that comes from the Old Testament, where Elijah’s mantle fell on Elisha, it’s describing that.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: But, I mean, even someone like D. Michael Quinn quickly goes through the sources and describes a kind of a transfiguration. For instance, Times and Seasons reports that every saint could see that Elijah’s mantle had fallen upon the Twelve. The church newspaper doesn’t specifically refer to Brigham Young, but on the 15th of November, 1844, so this is just two or three months after, Henry and Catherine Brooke, who are people that live in Nauvoo, wrote a letter saying that Brigham Young, “favors Brother Joseph both in person, manner of speaking, more than any person you ever saw looks like another.” And then five days later, Azra Hinckley referred to “Brigham Young, on whom the mantle of the prophet Joseph has fallen.” So there were some within a couple months, but as time goes on, people are asked to kind of come in, share their experiences with the church historian, and we start to get this rich historiography that’s collected in Opening the Heavens. Like I said, 129 accounts, and they range from fairly mundane to, you know what? I knew that they were the people that were supposed to lead the church, to fairly extraordinary. For instance, this is Judge William Hyde. William Hyde is a citizen of Nauvoo. This is the way he describes it: he said, “In the afternoon, President Brigham Young came to the stand and addressed the vast multitude of anxious listeners as follows: the church had the privilege of coming to Joseph and of receiving, but he’s now stepped to the other side of the veil. He loved the church even unto death and laid down his life for it. President Young again arose and spoke concerning the endowments of the elders. On this day it was plainly manifest that the mantle of Joseph had rested upon President Young. The voice of the same spirit by which he, Joseph, spake was this day sounded in our ears, so much so that I once unthoughtedly raised my head to see if it was not actually Joseph addressing the assembly.” So that’s not too out there, right? He’s saying, I thought I heard Joseph’s voice. But he could be speaking kind of metaphorically. There’s other people that talk about it in more dramatic terms, like William Adams. Like, do you want to read William Adams for me here?

Scott Woodward: Yes. William said, “There was a great multitude attending the meeting. More than one half the crowd could not find seats and stood on their feet. Never were so many at one meeting that I ever saw. I was sitting down and could not see the speakers on the stand. I was listening very attentively so that I could hear every word. I heard a voice speaking. I was surprised and jumped to my feet, expecting Joseph the prophet, was speaking, having heard him often in public and private, so that I was quite acquainted with his voice. This was a strong testimony that the Twelve Apostles were the rightful leaders of the church, and that the mouth of Joseph had fallen on Brigham Young.”

Casey Griffiths: Okay. So his is a little bit more boom, like, I jumped up on my feet because I thought that Joseph had come back.

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Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Now, this next account, we’re going to have a special guest read.

Scott Woodward: Special guest reader.

Casey Griffiths: Special cameo. And can I say who the cameo is, or do you want to say who it is?

Scott Woodward: Okay, this is one of my favorite, favorite people in the whole world. We wanted a reader for Caroline Barnes Crosby, and since she’s a woman, we wanted to give an authentic voice, so we invited my wife, Sarah Woodward, to read this, so let’s hear Sarah read it now.

Sarah Woodward: Caroline Barnes Crosby, age 37: “Sidney Rigdon came to the stand and tried to show the people that he was the rightful successor of Joseph, and his arguments were so powerful that many were almost persuaded to believe him such. But as soon as the Twelve Apostles, with Brother Brigham Young at their head, took the stand, it was shown conclusively where the power rested. It was the first time that I ever thought he, Brigham, resembled Brother Joseph, but almost everyone exclaimed that the mantle of Joseph had fallen on Brigham. For one, I never had any doubts afterward. We all soon became comforted concerning our leaders, but persecution continued all around us. The Brethren were obliged to be on guard all the time.”

Scott Woodward: Thank you, Sarah. Appreciate that.

Casey Griffiths: But let’s analyze here: she’s not saying anything too extraordinary, either. She said, “It was the first time . . . I ever thought [that] . . . Brigham resembled Brother Joseph, but almost everyone exclaimed that the mantle of Joseph had fallen on Brigham.” So, again, the accounts aren’t uniform. Here’s another one: This is Homer Duncan. He was 29 years old. He said, “I must make mention on one more manifestation of the Lord’s goodness to me. At the special meeting held at Nauvoo after the prophet Joseph Smith’s death, at that time, the mantle of the prophet of the Lord fell upon Brigham Young. I sat listening to someone speaking with my head down, my face in the palms of my hands and my elbows on my knees. While in this position, Brigham Young came to the stand and commenced to speak with the voice of Joseph the Prophet. Being so well acquainted with the Prophet’s voice, I nearly sprang from my seat through astonishment, but I set and heard the Prophet’s voice as long as Brigham Young was speaking. Not only did the voice of Brigham sound like that of Joseph, but the very gestures of his right hand when he was saying anything very positive reminded me of Joseph. My decision was then made as to who should lead The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for surely the mantle of Joseph had fallen upon Brigham.” So, again, he’s saying it surprised him that the gestures and things were the same, but he’s also going back to and saying, the spiritual witness was the important thing that was impressed on my mind. He’s the person that’s supposed to lead the church.

Scott Woodward: “My decision was then made as to who should lead the church,” yeah. You mentioned these aren’t all saying the exact same thing, but neither are they contradicting each other, right? I mean, this is what you’d expect if this was an authentic type of an experience.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Although I do wonder why they all keep saying the mantle of Joseph has fallen on Brigham. That almost seems like an institutional phrase by that time. Like, I wonder if someone started that phrase, and it started to pick up steam, and everyone started to talk about this experience using that phraseology, because I’m not sure that your average person would, you know, yeah, just use that phrase.

Casey Griffiths: That makes sense, because that’s kind of how the phrase starts to show up in the earliest accounts, is the mantle had fallen upon Brigham Young, which is a biblical phrase. It’s very common.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: We still use that phrase in the church today when a new prophet’s called or when a person is placed into a position of authority: the mantle came upon them.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Okay, our next one we want to do is Emily Smith Hoyt, and for that, we have another cameo. Do you want to introduce our next cameo, Casey?

Casey Griffiths: Yes. The next cameo is my wife, Elizabeth Otley Griffiths, and I am excited to hear her bring Emily Hoyt to life, because this is one of my favorite accounts. So here we go:

Elizabeth Griffiths: Emily Smith Hoyt, age 37. “After the martyrdom, we, Emily and Samuel, were summoned over the river again and went to hear what was wanted. Brigham Young and the President of the Twelve had returned home. The people were convened in the old Bowery where Joseph had last spoken to the people. Sidney Rigdon made a speech and claimed to have authority to lead the church. Others had similar claims. None appeared reasonable to me. The last one arose. It was the then President of the Twelve, Brigham Young. He spoke to the people altogether in a different style from any of those who preceded him. A crowd of witnesses arose after Brigham Young had sat down and testified to the truth of what he had said. President Brigham Young arose from his seat the second time and addressed the audience. I had been well acquainted with Joseph the latter part of his life. We had been at his home many times, and Joseph, Hyrum, and the families felt at home with us. The God of Heaven, who had said it was his business to provide for his saints, sent President Brigham Young home just in time and clothed him not with the mantle of Elijah, but the spirit and power which had rested on Joseph. I was an eye- and ear-witness. The manner of reasoning, the expression of countenance, the sound of the voice thrilled my whole soul. My own eyes had beheld Joseph’s murdered body. My own hands had felt death’s icy coldness on his once noble forehead. I knew that Joseph was dead, and yet I often startled and involuntarily looked at the stand to see if it was not Joseph. It was not. It was Brigham Young, and if anyone doubts the right of Brigham to manage affairs for the saints, all I have to say to them is this: get the Spirit of God, and know for yourselves. The Lord will provide for his own.”

Casey Griffiths: Thank you, Liz. This one you can see. Emily is very well educated, she’s very thoughtful, and she’s very specific. Like, she is not speaking in any kind of hyperbole. She’s very exact in saying, here’s what I saw, here’s what happened, and here’s what I witnessed. It’s nothing too extraordinary, but she says, you know what? I knew Joseph Smith. I knew him well. She’s making a definite claim here.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Let’s do another one. You do this one.

Scott Woodward: Okay. This one is William A. Watkins. He said, “A meeting was appointed for August 8, 1844, by which time Brigham Young and most of the other apostles had returned home. It was at this meeting Sidney Rigdon made a lengthy and tedious speech presenting his claims, telling the people what wonderful things he had planned for them. The darkness was soon dispelled, for Brigham Young explained before the people on that day the order of the priesthood. He was filled with the power of the Holy Ghost. He stood before the people, as the prophet Joseph Smith often had done, and we heard the voice of the true shepherd, for he spoke with the voice of Joseph. His manner and appearance were like unto Joseph’s, and it was manifested to all those present upon whom the responsibility rested to carry on the work of God and lead the saints.

Casey Griffiths: So here’s another example of an early one. This is from George Morris, and I really love this one because he even puts in sound effects when he’s doing this.

Scott Woodward: My kind of guy.

Casey Griffiths: He writes, “In the afternoon, President Young arose, when I was startled by hearing Joseph’s voice. He had a way of clearing his throat before he began to speak by a peculiar effort of his own, like, ahem. I raised my head suddenly, and the first thing I saw was Joseph, as plain as I ever saw him in my life. That was testimony enough to convince me where the proper authority rested.” And so this guy is saying something extraordinary, that he just looked up and saw Joseph Smith. He actually saw Joseph and Brigham cleared his throat the way Joseph did. Ahem! That kind of thing. So, again, the accounts aren’t uniform across the board, but they do kind of . . .

Scott Woodward: They coalesce, yeah.

Casey Griffiths: They coalesce, yeah. They pretty much say all the same thing. And it’s possible that some of these which were recorded later may have been going off of what they had heard other people say, but there’s 129 in this one account and—in this one document alone.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And that’s so many that we can’t dismiss that something extraordinary happened. I mean, credit to Lynn Jorgensen and the team at BYU Studies for putting these all together. And again, you can download them or read them for yourself for free.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: But there’s so many of them that I think Van Wagoner really sort of is too dismissive when he says, oh, it’s just an emotional thing that kind of spiraled. There’s a lot of people that say something happened in the meeting, and they’re really specific about what they say, so it’s kind of hard to dismiss them.

Scott Woodward: There’s even, like, some children, which is cool. They don’t record their account until they’re a little older, but they say, I was a kid, and I looked up and I said, mommy, mommy, brother Joseph’s back. You know, those—there’s a few of those kind of accounts as well, which are pretty cool.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: I recommend just reading all of them. The historical caution here is, yeah, nobody wrote it down the day that it happened. The first recording happens a month later. We get a month later, we have somebody mentioning it.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. Times and Seasons mentions it.

Scott Woodward: Yep. Times and Seasons, and then from there, we get a trickle, and then I feel like there was a time in Utah where anyone who had witnessed it was asked to come forth and write down their experience, right? Kind of all at once. Am I remembering that right from the article?

Casey Griffiths: I believe so, yeah, and it may have been around the time that the RLDS church started to assert its claims.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: That they invited anybody who was there to come in and record it.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: The other kind of surge is in the early 20th century where a lot of these people are kind of getting up in years, and they’re going to pass away, and they want to record their experiences—which, actually, this is fairly normal when it comes to history is that a lot of people don’t take the time to record their experiences unless someone asks them to or they’re getting near the end of their life and they’re realizing, if I don’t write this down, it’s going to be lost. And so it does kind of fit that pattern as well. But again, I want to emphasize, there’s nothing from that day specifically, but it’s also not a uniform spiritual experience. A lot of people see and experience different things. And the second thing is there’s just so many of them.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: It’s difficult to dismiss them.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: By the way, let me mention too, while there might be disputes over whether or not Brigham Young was transfigured, nobody disputes that Brigham Young and the Twelve were chosen as the leaders of the church.

Scott Woodward: Overwhelmingly.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. Ron Walker says, you know what? When everything was presented to the saints, the choice was clear. They choose Brigham Young. Sidney Rigdon initially goes along with this, too. We’ll talk a little bit about that in the next episode, but this event basically solidifies support around the Twelve, and the Twelve become the dominant leaders from there on out, even though there’s still going to be schisms, even though there’s going to be people that split off, the Twelve are seen as the central figures that the church kind of coalesces around during this time.

Scott Woodward: Well, that was really fun to review together, Casey. Very important history here. And to conclude, could I just top us off with a quote from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland?

Casey Griffiths: Mm-hmm.

Scott Woodward: Okay. Here’s what he says about this event: “By momentarily giving Brigham Young Joseph’s appearance and very manner of speech, quite literally his mantle, God said to the people, there in Nauvoo, the keys of the kingdom are with the Twelve. Brigham is Joseph’s rightful successor in leading the church. That is the obvious and very important declaration about church governance the Lord was making.” Then he says, “But an even more important declaration was the manifestation of heavenly power itself. God’s might and direct involvement in this issue was the truly important thing that was conveyed here, not that Brigham Young was to be in charge, or even that Joseph Smith had been in charge. The message was God is in charge. That was the message of August 8, 1844.”

Casey Griffiths: That’s it. And we’re going to talk about how prophetic succession kind of evolved over time, but I think we needed this big, dramatic, spiritual event to kind of kick things off.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Now, that doesn’t mean that there’s not a rocky road from here on out, and there were still issues with Brigham Young’s succession that needed to be resolved, but Brigham Young himself wrote that he felt the saints were of one heart and one mind—after the meeting that they were united. And so, six days in August, we get to the end, we find out that the Lord endorses Brigham Young, that the Lord makes His choice, and we move forward from there.

Scott Woodward: And because of that who, that’s going to have a very significant impact on the what of the church going forward.

Casey Griffiths: Yes.

Scott Woodward: Thank you for listening to this episode of Church History Matters, and another special thanks to our cameo readers today, Sarah Woodward and Elizabeth Griffiths. Next week Casey and I discuss how Brigham Young and the Twelve led the church for three years as a quorum of equals and what then led to the contested decision to ultimately reorganize the First Presidency of the church in 1847. If you’re enjoying Church History Matters, we’d appreciate it if you could take a moment to subscribe, rate, review, and comment on the podcast. That makes us easier to find. Also, we’d love to hear your suggestions for future series on this podcast. If there’s a church history topic you think would be worth exploring for multiple episodes, send us your idea to podcasts@scripturecentral.org. We’ll consider all suggestions. Today’s episode was produced by Scott Woodward and edited by Nick Galieti and Scott Woodward, with show notes and transcript by Gabe Davis. Church History Matters is a podcast of Scripture Central, a nonprofit which exists to help build enduring faith in Jesus Christ by making Latter-day Saint scripture and church history accessible, comprehensible, and defensible to people everywhere. For more resources to enhance your gospel study, go to scripturecentral.org, where everything is available for free because of the generous donations of people like you. And while we try very hard to be historically and doctrinally accurate in what we say on this podcast, please remember that all views expressed in this and every episode are our views alone and do not necessarily reflect the views of Scripture Central or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thank you so much for being a part of this with us.