Scott Woodward: Who is next in line to become the president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Today this is not a difficult question. It is well understood that whoever is the next most senior apostle to the current church president will be the next president, should he live long enough. The singular issue is seniority. It all boils down to seniority. So what determines seniority among the apostles? Again, today there is a ready answer to this question, but it was not always so. In fact, in today’s episode of Church History Matters, we walk through the winding path of how criteria for seniority in the apostleship has changed significantly from Joseph Smith’s day to our own, and we’ll talk about how church presidents have responded to difficult seniority questions, such as, if two men are ordained apostles on the same day, who is the senior apostle? And if a man is ordained an apostle but never becomes a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, how does this affect his seniority? Or say two men were ordained apostles, the one sometime before the other, but then the man ordained second becomes a member of the Quorum of the Twelve ahead of the man ordained before him. Which of these two men has seniority over the other? And how, if at all, is a man’s seniority affected if he is an apostle who leaves the church or is excommunicated for a time but is then reinstated back into the Quorum of the Twelve? While these may seem like very technical questions, they grew out of real life circumstances, and the decisions made about each scenario have determined more than once who has become president of the church. I’m Scott Woodward, and my co-host is Casey Griffiths, and today Casey and I dive into our fifth episode in this series about succession in the presidency. And by the way, please excuse my microphone issues. For some reason, my mic kept cutting and dipping out and making it sound like I was underwater. Oh, well. What do you do? Now let’s get into it.

Casey Griffiths: Hey, if you’re listening to this episode on the day it came out, we are at Education Week.

Scott Woodward: Yes.

Casey Griffiths: And so if you want to meet us in person, Scott and I are doing a series together, and then I’m doing a solo series, but Scott and I will be together in the Wilkinson Center ballroom, so . . .

Scott Woodward: Yes. Come on over and say hi. If you’re in town, we’d love to see you.

Casey Griffiths: Come on down and see us. Wilkinson Center ballroom, 1:50 to 2:45 Tuesday through Friday. And so come on down.

Scott Woodward: This is our idea of a good time.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. Speaking of our idea of a good time, I’m just going to warn you in advance that this is the episode of our series on succession that is, like, the wonkiest, like, you know how you see those guys on The West Wing and other TV shows that are just, like, obsessed with the minutiae of every single law?

Scott Woodward: Uh-huh.

Casey Griffiths: This is that episode. And so if you like technicalities, if you want to get into the absolute tiniest details of how things work, this is what it’s all about, when it comes to succession. This is very technical stuff, but I find it fascinating, personally. Like . . .

Scott Woodward: It is very fascinating.

Casey Griffiths: This is stuff I’m excited to talk about because I love kind of, like, the technicalities and how they resolved all these little issues.

Scott Woodward: Little issues which have big implications and big consequences, actually, so . . .

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. Yeah.

Scott Woodward: That, I think, makes it very, very worth our discussion today, so absolutely, man.

Casey Griffiths: Let me give a little introduction. So last time we talked a little bit about how what happened in the wake of Joseph Smith’s death established a couple things. The senior member of the Quorum of the Twelve was going to take over leadership. That’s Brigham Young. The Apostles, the Quorum of the Twelve, also have three years where they lead the church, the Apostolic Interregnum, as it’s called.

Scott Woodward: Apostolic Interregnum. And I looked up the word interregnum. It means a gap.

Casey Griffiths: A gap.

Scott Woodward: Or discontinuity between normal forms of government. There you go.

Casey Griffiths: Yep. That still happens in the church today. Today it normally takes around two weeks. Back then it was three years. It wasn’t until the winter of 1847 they decided to reorganize the First Presidency after a spirited debate—

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: —among the members of the Quorum of the Twelve.

Scott Woodward: It was not without controversy itself.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And at that time it was really clear who the senior apostle was. It was Brigham Young.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: However, the question of seniority and how we determine seniority raises a number of additional questions as well. For instance, what determines seniority? And if apostles are called at the same time, how do you figure out who the senior apostle is? So I’ll give you an example: two apostles are called in the 1940s. One is named Ezra Taft Benson. One is named Spencer W. Kimball. They both become presidents of the church later on, but how did they figure out which one was senior?

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Because they were called at the same time.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And since seniority is such a big question in determining the leader of the church, how do we decide today who the senior apostle is? You remember back in 2015? And in 2018, by the way. In 2015, we had three apostles called at the same conference.

Scott Woodward: That’s right.

Casey Griffiths: 2018 we had two apostles, Ulisses Soares and Gerrit Gong. Elder Gong is senior. How did they figure out who the senior apostle was going to be? And the reason why this is such a big deal is when we talk about succession, this literally determines who the president of the church is going to be.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And let me illustrate this with a more authoritative voice than my own.

Scott Woodward: Okay.

Casey Griffiths: Back in 1998, Gordon B. Hinckley, president of the church, appeared on the talk show Larry King Live.

Scott Woodward: I remember this.

Casey Griffiths: You remember this? Were you a missionary when this happened, or . . . ?

Scott Woodward: I was a senior in high school.

Casey Griffiths: Okay, I was a missionary, and this was like the Super Bowl. Like, we went to a member’s house. We got permission to watch it. They had treats. We brought investigators.

Scott Woodward: Little hot wings and ranch dip . . .

Casey Griffiths: Totinos. You know?

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Pizza rolls, all that stuff.

Scott Woodward: Totally, uh-huh.

Casey Griffiths: And it was huge because the president of the church was going on this talk show. First of all, Larry King was known as a good interviewer, but people could also call in and ask him questions. And at the time, Larry King, who—rest in peace. He’s gone to the other side. So has President Hinckley—was married to a Latter-day Saint. He was married to a member of the church.

Scott Woodward: That’s right.

Casey Griffiths: Within the first minute, Scott, Larry King asked President Hinckley how he became the prophet, and President Hinckley gave what I think is still the best short response I’ve ever heard. So could I play this clip for you right now?

Scott Woodward: Yeah, let’s play it.

CNN Announcer: This is CNN.

Larry King: Tonight, a rare live interview with Gordon B. Hinckley, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, next on Larry King Live. He’s one of the distinguished religious leaders in the world. It’s an honor to have him as our guest tonight for the full hour, and later we’ll be including your phone calls. He’s Gordon Hinckley. Gordon B. Hinckley is president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormons. He is 88 and a half years old.

Gordon B. Hinckley: Correct.

Larry King: Do you think, like, maybe retiring?

Gordon B. Hinckley: Oh, no, there’s no chance. Going to keep going right to the end.

Larry King: You’re going to go till the calling comes.

Gordon B. Hinckley: Right.

Larry King: What does the president entail? I’ve heard you called the prophet. Are you the—are what—when you speak, do you speak for the church?

Gordon B. Hinckley: I speak for the church, yes, I think so. Yes.

Larry King: And this is a position that you’re appointed. How do you get this? How do you get to be president?

Gordon B. Hinckley: You’re appointed a member of the Council of Twelve and you outlive everybody else. Senior member of the Twelve becomes the president of the church.

Larry King: The council takes turns.

Gordon B. Hinckley: Right.

Scott Woodward: There it is.

Casey Griffiths: That’s the best short answer for succession. What we are taking probably, like, a 15-episode series to explain, President Hinckley did in less than five seconds.

Scott Woodward: You become ordained a member of the Twelve, and you outlive everybody else.

Casey Griffiths: That’s it. Yep. So, easy peasy. Thanks for joining us on Church History Matters. Have a great week. That’s it.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Yeah. So that’s super easy for us to say, super easy for President Hinckley to say, but things were not always so cut and dry, were they, Casey?

Casey Griffiths: No. Definitely not.

Scott Woodward: We got to that point after some angst and some rearranging. So, yeah, it’s a nice, smooth place to be today, but we want to talk about in today’s episode how further steps were taken by President Brigham Young to get us to that easy answer, because it wasn’t always that easy.

Casey Griffiths: No. Definitely not. Definitely not. So that’s what we’re dealing with today: seniority in the Twelve and how it’s determined.

Scott Woodward: Okay. So our burning question of the day is, how did Brigham Young’s method of determining seniority in the Twelve impact the church going forward? That’s what we want to do.

Casey Griffiths: Correct.

Scott Woodward: Okay, so how do you want to start this one? Should we go back to 1835 at the beginning of the Twelve and then string it forward from there?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So let’s talk about the original Quorum of the Twelve, okay?

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: The original Quorum of the Twelve was something that was kind of in the mix before the church was even organized.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: A revelation given in 1829 to Joseph Smith, this is Doctrine and Covenants 18. It was a revelation given to Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, and in verses 37 to 39 they were told they were going to search out the Twelve. In fact, it reads, “And now behold, I give unto you, Oliver Cowdery, and also unto David Whitmer, that you shall search out the Twelve, who shall have the desires of which I have spoken, and by their desires and their works you shall know them, and when you have found them, you shall show these things unto them.” And so Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer are going to find the Twelve. They’re two of the original three witnesses of the Book of Mormon.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: By the time we get to 1835, when we’re ready to set apart the Twelve, which is six years later, Martin Harris is in the mix, too. He’s one of the three witnesses. So the three witnesses choose Twelve men among the elders of the church, and this is just after Zion’s Camp, just after the church has been through some traumatic events, and Joseph Smith has on his mind things like, hey, are we training leaders to take over? What if something were to happen to me? He almost dies while he’s on Zion’s Camp, and so he knows he needs to call the Twelve. He receives another revelation. This is section 107 of the Doctrine and Covenants, setting up the presiding quorums of the First Presidency, presiding bishopric, Twelve, Seventy, stake high councils and so on and so forth, and the three witnesses are asked to choose the Twelve, but here’s the question: they’re all going to be chosen at the same time, so who’s going to be senior? Like, how do you determine who the quorum president is going to be? And, Scott, you already know the answer, but how did they determine seniority among the original 1835 Twelve Apostles?

Scott Woodward: Yeah, so they go with the most literal meaning of the term seniority, and that is, they go by your birthday.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: That was the original way. That’s not the way we do it today, but that was the original way with the members of the original Quorum of the Twelve.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Because, as you said, they were all called at the same time.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: They weren’t all set apart on the same day, but it was within a few weeks of each other.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And they almost—it’s weird, because some of them were traveling—

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: —but they almost went in reverse order. Like, they were ordained almost opposite to their age. Like, Lyman Johnson, who’s the youngest in the quorum, was actually the first one ordained.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And you can put out all these dates here, and it goes down, but by seniority, in the original Quorum of the Twelve, they were listed as follows: the original president of the Quorum of the Twelve was not Brigham Young: it was Thomas B. Marsh. I should be at TMU right now, if things had worked out.

Scott Woodward: Thomas Marsh University.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And you’re not at Thomas Marsh University because . . .

Casey Griffiths: Because Thomas—well, we’ll get to that part of the story later on, but—Thomas B. Marsh is the original president of the Quorum of the Twelve because of age, then David W. Patten, then Brigham Young is next. Brigham Young’s third in seniority.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Then you’ve got Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, William E. McLellin, Parley P. Pratt, Luke S. Johnson, William B. Smith, Orson Pratt, John F. Boynton, and Lyman E. Johnson. So that’s the original Quorum of the Twelve, arranged by seniority.

Scott Woodward: And we should say that they’re fairly young.

Casey Griffiths: They are.

Scott Woodward: They’re fairly young. Thomas B. Marsh was 36 years old, and he’s the oldest in the quorum—

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: —in 1835. Brigham Young was 35, the youngest all the way down to Lyman Johnson: he was 25 years old. So, I mean, we’re talking a pretty young quorum, very different than church members are used to seeing today.

Casey Griffiths: These whippersnappers, right?

Scott Woodward: Whippersnappers, yeah.

Casey Griffiths: They’re even young compared to me and you, Scott—

Scott Woodward: I know.

Casey Griffiths: —and it’s a little overwhelming. But—

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: —I mean, this is fair, right? Age is fair. It doesn’t favor anybody over anybody else.

Scott Woodward: It’s logical.

Casey Griffiths: And they’re just using the literal meaning of the word seniority.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: However, as historians are wont to do—and I told you this was a really nitpicky episode—as time has gone on, we have found some complexities in this story, so . . .

Scott Woodward: A few wrinkles, if you will.

Casey Griffiths: Let me point out a couple, okay? For instance, Oliver Cowdery, who’s selecting the apostles, actually wrote a letter to Brigham Young in 1848 telling him that the three witnesses had originally chosen his brother Phineas as a member of the quorum.

Scott Woodward: That would be Brigham Young’s younger brother, correct?

Casey Griffiths: This is Brigham Young’s older brother.

Scott Woodward: This is Brigham Young’s older brother. Okay.

Casey Griffiths: Big brother, yep. And that’s important because if Phineas had been placed in the Quorum of the Twelve, because of his birthday, he would have been the senior apostle.

Scott Woodward: You would be at PYU.

Casey Griffiths: I would be at PYU.

Scott Woodward: You would be at PYU. That’s—it doesn’t roll off the tongue quite as easily as BYU, but yeah.

Casey Griffiths: It’s objectively funnier than BYU, right? But yeah, Phineas’s birthday was February 16, 1799. He would have been the oldest member of the quorum.

Scott Woodward: So he’s older than Thomas B. Marsh.

Casey Griffiths: He’s old—yeah. He would have been the senior apostle.

Scott Woodward: Why was he not? Why was he not? If the Three Witnesses chose him, why was he not put into the quorum?

Casey Griffiths: Let me just say this: Phineas was a great guy, and I think he would have made a great apostle and probably a great church president. We’ll never know. This is all Monday morning quarterbacking. And by the way, Phineas stays faithful. He’s Oliver Cowdery’s brother-in-law. He helps bring Oliver Cowdery back into the church. There’s a whole fabulous series of letters between Phineas and Oliver while Oliver’s outside the church where Oliver affirms the reality of priesthood restoration and the miracles that happened. Phineas later explained that Joseph Smith actually approached him. Joseph Smith approached him and asked if he would be willing to serve elsewhere so that Joseph’s brother, William Smith, could serve in the Twelve, and Phineas agreed to step aside.

Scott Woodward: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let’s just think about that for a second. So . . .

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: So William Smith is put into the Twelve at Joseph Smith’s own instigation, where he gently asked Phineas, who had been chosen by the three witnesses, to step aside and to serve elsewhere.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: That’s going to have a church history trajectory-altering impact, right?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So William Smith does become a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, but of the original Twelve, he struggles quite a bit.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. He’s got the most problems.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, he—well, I wouldn’t say he has the most problems.

Scott Woodward: A lot of them have a lot of problems.

Casey Griffiths: A lot of them get excommunicated fairly quickly, like by 1838.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: William hangs in there until 1845, and we’ve already talked about what happened with him.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: But William’s troubled, Phineas is stable and faithful. William was a gifted speaker, but he has a complicated relationship with Joseph Smith. We’ve talked about this in the past. By the way, Oliver Cowdery tells this to Brigham Young: in an interview near the end of his life David Whitmer actually says the same thing, that, like, they had chosen Phineas Young to serve in the Twelve but were overruled by Joseph Smith, and it doesn’t seem like there were hard feelings here or anything like that. Joseph Smith’s president of the church.

Scott Woodward: Joseph is clearly the presiding elder. You can do that.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Phineas Young, you and I could be at PYU if there had been just a little different.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: The second wrinkle in the story is concerning their age. According to the ages that they provided at the time, Thomas B. Marsh was the oldest. He was born November 1, 1799, and David Patten was the next oldest, born November 14, 1799. So there’s only thirteen days that separate them.

Scott Woodward: Wow.

Casey Griffiths: But Thomas becomes the senior apostle, President of the Quorum of the Twelve.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: However, when we reviewed census records, birth records for Massachusetts, where Thomas B. Marsh is from, we found out that Thomas actually misremembered the year that he was born. He was not born in 1799, he was born in 1800, the next year—

Scott Woodward: OK.

Casey Griffiths: —which would have put him even further down in the order of succession.

Scott Woodward: So, wait, he forgot his birth year.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: I feel like 1800 is a nice, round number. Like, how do you accidentally think that, oh, I think it was 1799?

Casey Griffiths: I mean, apparently this wasn’t super uncommon at the time. I did, like, do a little research into this, and a lot of people—it wasn’t like today, where we have this rigid calendar system. Time was seasonal. That’s why, you know, when Joseph Smith writes the First Vision he has to actually sit down and say, oh, what year was it? And everything like that.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: But David Patten was actually older. So you and I should be teaching at DPU.

Scott Woodward: —DPU, if it wasn’t for the fact of what happens to David Patten.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So David Patten could have been—and all this is kind of illustrating they start out with this question of seniority, but already there’s challenges regarding that. And the Twelve is, in a lot of ways, a meritocracy, where they start out all together, but as time goes on, the best, the most faithful, the most gifted leaders do kind of, sort of sift themselves to the top, if that makes sense.

Scott Woodward: You’re saying in terms of staying in the church?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, in terms of staying in the church, I would agree with that because yeah, in that original Quorum of the Twelve, we’re going to lose a bunch in the midst of and in the aftermath of the Kirtland apostasy, correct?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So, I mean—and the other wrinkle here, too, is if we set aside seniority by age and go by when they were ordained, which is another metric to consider, they were almost ordained in reverse order. Like we mentioned, Lyman Johnson was ordained first.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Thomas B. Marsh was ordained second to last. You could make the case that if seniority went by who became apostle first, Lyman White might have been the senior apostle. So it gets a little twisty there, too.

Scott Woodward: In the midst of the Kirtland apostasy, we’re going to lose four, right? John F. Boynton, Luke S. Johnson, Lyman E. Johnson, and William E. McLellin.

Casey Griffiths: Yes.

Scott Woodward: All in the year 1838, officially.

Casey Griffiths: They’re all excommunicated from the church, and Luke Johnson does come back into the church, but he’s never placed back into the Quorum of the Twelve.

Scott Woodward: Luke Johnson’s the only one to ever be an apostle who was later ordained a bishop in Utah, actually. Kind of fun.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Good credentials. Good credentials.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And we’ve talked about this on multiple occasions, but this was during the Kirtland apostasy, which was pretty severe. Thomas B. Marsh, David Patten, Brigham Young later says that only him and Heber C. Kimball didn’t quarrel with Joseph Smith—didn’t question his leadership.

Scott Woodward: The way Joseph says it is, only Brigham and Heber didn’t lift the heel against me.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, that’s right.

Scott Woodward: Which doesn’t mean they all apostatized, it just—every one of the apostles had some issues with Joseph during this time, except for Brigham and Heber.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So in some sense, it is a meritocracy, right? They all start together, but as time goes on, these four are excommunicated from the church. A revelation given July 8, 1838, this is Doctrine and Covenants 118, calls new apostles to replace these four lost apostles. The revelation reads, “Let my servant John Taylor, and also my servant John E. Page, and also my servant Wilford Woodruff, and also my servant Willard Richards be appointed to fill the places of those who have fallen and be officially notified of their appointment.” So—

Scott Woodward: Man.

Casey Griffiths: —they’re all called at the same time. Again, how are we going to determine seniority? There’s a couple of wrinkles here, too. For instance, it takes time to call each of them to the apostleship because Willard Richards is actually in England.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: He goes with the first set of missionaries to England in 1837, and he stays behind to oversee and minister to the church there, and he’s actually the first apostle ordained on foreign soil. He’s ordained in England. I’ve been to England, and to English members of the church, this is a point of pride. Willard Richards was actually ordained in England, and he meets his wife there, Jennetta Richards.

Scott Woodward: And in that verse, in that verse, I count two future presidents of the church.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: John Taylor, John Page, Wilford Woodruff, Willard Richards. Yeah. That’s—this is a big move. This is a very significant moment.

Casey Griffiths: We know how the story turned out, but—

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: —does their calling affect their seniority in the Twelve? How come John Taylor became president of the church after Brigham Young and not Wilford Woodruff if they’re called at the same time?

Scott Woodward: Mm-hmm.

Casey Griffiths: Like, all these questions are coming up, and you can see how, from the beginning, it’s complex, and they have to start laying down some rules. However, before these four could even be set apart, ordained apostles, new developments happen. So Orson Hyde and Thomas B. Marsh, both original members of the Quorum of the Twelve, apostatize. They leave the church.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And we’ll talk more in depth about that in a second. David Patten is killed at the Battle of Crooked River. So we have our first apostolic martyr of this dispensation. All of this happens in October 1838, before the four can be ordained to the presidency, so—

Scott Woodward: Now Thomas B. Marsh gone.

Casey Griffiths: Thomas B. Marsh is gone.

Scott Woodward: David Patten’s gone.

Casey Griffiths: David Patten’s gone. Seniority shifts to Brigham Young, and Brigham Young immediately steps up to the plate. He leads the Saints in their exodus from Missouri.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And a couple weeks later he ordains John E. Page and John Taylor, both on December 19, 1838. John E. Page was ordained first, so keep that in mind.

Scott Woodward: OK . . .

Casey Griffiths: We’ve already lost four apostles to excommunication. Now we’ve had two apostatize, one get killed. We’re missing seven members of the Quorum of the Twelve.

Scott Woodward: Wow.

Casey Griffiths: We’ve replaced two.

Scott Woodward: Okay.

Casey Griffiths: So while the First Presidency, that’s Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Sidney Rigdon, are in Liberty Jail, they send a letter to Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball on January 16, 1839, and they ask them to call two new apostles to replace Orson Hyde and Thomas B. Marsh. The letter, which you can find on the Joseph Smith Papers site, reads, “It will be necessary for you to get the Twelve together, ordain such as have not been ordained,” so they’re recognizing some of them haven’t even been ordained yet, like Willard Richards and Wilford Woodruff, “or at least such of them as you can get to proceed to regulate the elders as the Lord may give you wisdom. We nominate George A. Smith and Lyman Sherman to take the place of Orson Hyde and Thomas B. Marsh. Brethren, fear not, but be strong in the Lord and the power of his might.”

Scott Woodward: Can I tell the Lyman Sherman story?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, please. Fire away.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, this is really interesting. So George A. Smith is Joseph Smith’s cousin, and Lyman Sherman, he’s a stalwart who’s mentioned in D&C 108, but a fun little plot twist here is Lyman Sherman passes away the next month. The next month, Casey.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: He was informed, as I understand it, of his nomination to the Twelve, but then he passed away. In the meantime, through the efforts of Heber C. Kimball and Hyrum Smith, they’re going to bring Orson Hyde back into the church.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And since his replacement, Lyman Sherman, had passed away, Orson Hyde will just be able to assume his place back in the Quorum of the Twelve. Like, a really interesting turn of events right there.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, and that’s just one little wrinkle, so . . .

Scott Woodward: Yes.

Casey Griffiths: In the meantime, Wilford Woodruff and George A. Smith are both ordained on April 26, 1839. You might recall that was when the Twelve snuck back into Far West.

Scott Woodward: Such a fun story.

Casey Griffiths: Section 118 says they have to start their mission from Far West on the 26th of April, 1839. Far West becomes enemy territory.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: They sneak in, they ordain these two, they even excommunicate a couple people.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And then they get the heck out of town as fast as they can. Now they fully restore the quorum when they get to England, and Willard Richards is ordained, and Lyman White joins the quorum, too.

Scott Woodward: So now everything is fully fleshed out. We’ve got a full Quorum of the Twelve.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. For the most part, by this point, this is the Quorum of the Twelve that’s going to be in place when Joseph Smith and Hyrum Smith are killed.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And that step up and lead the church. There’s a little bit of a hiccup because Orson Pratt’s excommunicated, but he comes back into the church. We’re going to talk about that.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: But these are the Twelve that assume church leadership. In fact, the Twelve, in order of seniority, when Brigham Young gives that speech where he’s transfigured, where the people sustain him—

Scott Woodward: 8th of August, 1844.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So the Twelve at this time are Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde, Parley P. Pratt, William Smith, Orson Pratt, John E. Page, Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, John Taylor, George A. Smith, and Lyman White.

Scott Woodward: OK.

Casey Griffiths: There’s complications after this. For instance, John E. Page, who you’ll remember was ordained before John Taylor, takes off and follows James Strang and is excommunicated. Lyman White takes off and sets up his own colony in Texas in 1848, although he does stay in contact with members of the Quorum of the Twelve. Like, as late as 1856, they’re still writing him, saying, come back, but Lyman dies before he can come back.

Scott Woodward: But for a brief moment, we’ve got full Quorum of the Twelve, then 1846, we lose John E. Page. 1848, we lose Lyman White. Oh, and William Smith was excommunicated in 1845.

Casey Griffiths: 1845, yeah. We forgot about him.

Scott Woodward: Okay. So that’s where things land kind of in Nauvoo before we come across the plains.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Essentially. So in all of this—you keep calling it wrinkles. In all of these wrinkles, then, those little twists and turns among the original Twelve, this is going to raise a few more questions about seniority, right?

Casey Griffiths: Right.

Scott Woodward: Like, for instance, okay, so was seniority determined by when the call was given or by when the person was ordained? And what about a person like Orson Hyde who left the church, or Orson Pratt who leaves the church or was excommunicated or wasn’t—we’ll talk about the complexity there—what about that little wrinkle? How does that affect their seniority when they eventually come back to the Twelve? So many questions.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, and big questions, because when we get to the second succession, when Brigham Young passes away in 1877, if we’re going by seniority within the 1835 Twelve, John Taylor is not the senior apostle: Orson Hyde is.

Scott Woodward: Right.

Casey Griffiths: And, spoiler alert, John Taylor becomes president of the church.

Scott Woodward: Not Orson Hyde.

Casey Griffiths: But the question is, why not Orson Hyde?

Scott Woodward: Yes.

Casey Griffiths: If we’re going by seniority. So let’s pause for a second and consider the story of Orson Hyde and then Orson Pratt. So tell us a little bit about Orson Hyde.

Scott Woodward: So from 1839 to 1877, Brigham Young is leading the church. Heber C. Kimball is next in seniority. He’ll serve as a counselor to the First Presidency until his death in 1868. And because of this, Orson Hyde will serve as acting president of the Quorum of the Twelve from 1848 all the way until 1875. But then in 1875 Brigham Young’s going to hold a meeting to realign seniority with the Twelve. Why does he do this, Casey? I will tell you.

Casey Griffiths: It’s a story.

Scott Woodward: It’s a story. Get comfortable. The story goes all the way back to 1838. Orson Hyde is among the first missionaries to serve in Great Britain. When he comes back from that mission to Great Britain, he comes to Far West. He’s feverish. He’s exhausted. According to his biographer Myrtle Hyde, she argues that in this diminished physical condition, he falls under the sway of Thomas B. Marsh. Thomas B. Marsh had been his file leader in the Quorum of the Twelve, right? So—but now, in this kind of weakened physical state, his biographer suggests, he became disillusioned under Thomas B. Marsh’s influence. We all remember the story of Thomas B. Marsh, his wife, the cream strippings, him leaving the church, but it’s more complicated than just that. So that’s already happened at this point, right? So now he’s out of the church. So in October of 1838, when Far West is about to come under the siege by the Missouri militia, Thomas B. Marsh persuades Orson to leave Far West with him, and so they travel to Richmond Landing, which is a safer town about 45 miles south, and there they run into Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer, who—both of them at this time have been excommunicated from the church, and those three together persuade Orson to help them compose a public statement alleging that Joseph Smith intended to attack and conquer part of Missouri and beyond by violent means. Geez. Orson adds his own statement to the document, he supports its claims, and then he adds that he had left the church. So he wasn’t actually excommunicated; he just publicly announces here he left the church.

Casey Griffiths: He announces he’s leaving the church, yeah.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. So while they’re in Richmond Landing, word reaches Thomas and Orson that David Patten, their fellow apostle, had just been killed in the Battle of Crooked River. And Thomas B. Marsh and David Patten had been really tight. They were very close, and so this news was a blow to them. And a few days later, Orson Hyde and Thomas B. Marsh were sitting together in a local little cabin on a log, if I remember the story right, when suddenly Thomas sat up like someone had slapped him on the shoulder, and Orson Hyde actually heard a voice, not Thomas’s voice, some voice coming from somewhere say, “Thomas. Thomas, why have you so soon forgotten?” Orson’s like, what the heck was that? Thomas tells Orson Hyde that he believes that that was David Patten, who just visited them from beyond the veil because he, Thomas, and Elder Patten had made a covenant to each other to remain true and faithful to the end, and now Thomas is out of the church and David Patten comes back from the other side of the veil and gives him a little slap and tells him, what the heck, man? Why have you forgotten our covenant? Now, what’s interesting is that experience doesn’t affect Thomas B. Marsh as much as it affects Orson Hyde.

Casey Griffiths: Orson Hyde, yeah.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Sometime after that event Orson actually receives a vision where he learned that if—he said, “If I did not make immediate restitution to the Quorum of the Twelve, I would be cut off from the church and everlasting blessings with all of my posterity.” That vision also revealed that he would be cast among the satanic hosts because of his spiritual denial, whatever that means. I think he even thought he might become a son of perdition.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. I bring this up when people bring up sons of perdition that, whatever Orson Hyde saw here not only got him to rejoin the church, but he volunteered to go on a 7,000-mile mission to dedicate the Holy Land. Like, it really—he had a “come to Jesus” moment, if you will.

Scott Woodward: Literally, yeah.

Casey Griffiths: He really came together, yeah.

Scott Woodward: This spurred him deeply, spiritually, and so Orson leaves his new home and travels to Richmond Jail, where he meets with Parley P. Pratt. He tries to see Joseph and Hyrum in Liberty Jail, but he was barred from entering, but he eventually makes his way back to Far West, where he finds Heber C. Kimball in the wreckage of that city in the aftermath of the expulsion there. Heber was his old missionary companion in England, and they reconcile quickly, easily. Heber welcomes him back. Orson asks Heber if he thinks that there’s any way he could be accepted back into the church. Heber thought he would. When Lyman Sherman died—remember, that was Orson Hyde’s replacement in the Twelve—when he passes away before he could be ordained, both Orson Hyde and Heber C. Kimball took that as a sign that the Lord wanted Orson to resume his place back in the Twelve. And you can just kind of stop and think about that for a second. That’s super interesting if that’s the case. So a few months later, Orson is going to be reunited with Joseph and Hyrum when they get out of Liberty Jail in Quincy, Illinois, and Brigham Young will be there as well, and there they hold a little council, and the decision is made not to excommunicate Orson Hyde. But he had publicly left the church, right? So, there was that dynamic happening here.

Casey Griffiths: He didn’t get rebaptized because he was never officially excommunicated, but he had made a public statement that he’d left the church.

Scott Woodward: So he hadn’t officially been excommunicated, but he stated he left the church, and therefore there was no need to rebaptize him. Very interesting. And as you mentioned, then later he’s going to serve the mission to dedicate the Holy Land. He’s going to publish one of the earliest accounts of the First Vision in German. I mean, he’s going to be on the forefront from here on out.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: He’ll be in the meeting that sustains the vote to reconstitute the First Presidency in Kanesville.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. He’s the one that calls for the sustaining vote in Kanesville, yeah.

Scott Woodward: So that’s kind of his little “cycle” out of the church and then back in, even though he wasn’t technically excommunicated. But the question lingers, how does his time, “outside of the church” affect his seniority in the Twelve Apostles?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Because there had been another man called to replace him in the Twelve: Lyman Sherman, which is Joseph Smith acknowledging that Orson Hyde is not in the Twelve anymore, right?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: So there’s that really interesting wrinkle. So anyway, we’ll pause it right there. That’s the Orson Hyde story and the little bit of complexity that’s going to come around a little bit later in terms of reorganizing seniority in the Twelve.

Casey Griffiths: Okay. The second person that has a complicated past in the Quorum of the Twelve is Orson Pratt. This one’s even twistier.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Okay?

Scott Woodward: Yeah, it is.

Casey Griffiths: Here’s what happens: Orson Pratt was excommunicated, but the legality of his excommunication is questioned by no less a figure than Joseph Smith.

Scott Woodward: Tell us the story.

Casey Griffiths: So here’s the story: Twelve go on their mission to England. While they’re in England, Joseph Smith introduces plural marriage in Nauvoo.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: When Orson gets back to Nauvoo, for a couple months everything’s going great. He’s doing good stuff like he always does, when Orson’s wife, Sarah Pratt, made an accusation that Joseph Smith had approached her and asked if she would be sealed to him.

Scott Woodward: Whoa.

Casey Griffiths: And so this kind of blows up Orson Pratt’s world, and he sides with his wife, basically.

Scott Woodward: And Joseph Smith, when he was interrogated about that, he denies it, correct?

Casey Griffiths: He denies it, but the story is going to get more complicated, so.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Fasten your seatbelt. During this time, Orson stops associating with other members of the Twelve; he refuses to join the Masonic fraternity, which they all do; and he doesn’t join the Quorum of the Anointed, which we’ve talked about is this group that the temple ordinances are introduced among.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And apparently he’s going back and forth. He’s hearing different things: that Sarah was associated with John C. Bennett, who’s being excommunicated from the church during this time, and it finally reaches a fever pitch when Orson leaves this note. Somebody literally finds this note in the street in Nauvoo. The note’s written by Orson Pratt. Somebody finds this.

Scott Woodward: Okay.

Casey Griffiths: He writes, “I am a ruined man. My future prospects are blasted. The testimony upon both sides seems to be equal, the one in direct contradiction to the other. How to decide I know not, neither does it matter, for let it be either way, my temporal happiness is gone in this world. If the testimonies of my wife and others are true, then I have been deceived for twelve years past. My hopes are blasted and gone, as it were in a moment. My long toils and labors have been in vain. If, on the other hand, the other testimonies are true, then my family are ruined forever. Where then is my hope in this world? It is gone: gone, not to be recovered. Oh, God, why is it thus with me? My sorrows are greater than I can bear. Where I am henceforth, it matters not.” And then he goes missing.

Scott Woodward: Oh, geez. So on the one hand, his wife is adamant that Joseph Smith proposed to her. On the other hand, Joseph Smith is adamant that he did not.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And Orson’s saying the evidence on both sides seems to be equal, and they contradict each other totally—

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: —and it doesn’t matter who’s right or who’s wrong. I’m—

Casey Griffiths: I’m ruined either way.

Scott Woodward: Oh, geez.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So, man, Orson goes missing, and the whole city kind of turns out to try and find him. Some people have speculated he may have been suicidal. Orson’s family members who have the most at stake here don’t think that he was. They just think he was . . .

Scott Woodward: Wandering.

Casey Griffiths: He was struggling, right?

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: They find him downriver about five miles, and they bring him back to the city, and a few days later there’s another public confrontation where they have a public meeting to consider John C. Bennett, who has been seducing women in Nauvoo under his doctrine of spiritual wifery, like—

Scott Woodward: Right.

Casey Griffiths: It’s not a plural marriage. It’s, you’re my spiritual wife, which means we have to sleep together. They hold the public meeting to sustain Joseph Smith, and Orson votes against Joseph Smith, which in a public meeting would have been a huge thing.

Scott Woodward: The gossip shockwaves a-ripplin’.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And Joseph directly confronts Orson in the meeting. He says, “Have you personally a knowledge of any immoral act in me towards the female sex or in any other way?” And Orson responds, “Personally, toward the female sex, I have not.” But they have this public confrontation. So now it’s out in the air. Everybody knows Orson is troubled. The accusations are spreading around Nauvoo.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: The other members of the Quorum of the Twelve try to intervene. Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and George A. Smith go and meet with him. Brigham Young later writes, “I spent several days laboring with Orson Pratt, whose mind had become so darkened by the influence and statements of his wife that he came out in rebellion against Joseph, refusing to believe his testimony or obey his counsel. He said he would believe his wife in preference to the prophet. Joseph told him if he did believe his wife and follow her suggestions, he would go to hell.”

Scott Woodward: Geez.

Casey Griffiths: And so, ooh. It’s just tough.

Scott Woodward: I’m trying to remember what Brian Hales said about this. We think that this was potentially a John C. Bennett concoction, is that right? Because he had been, it turns out, with Orson Pratt’s wife, right?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And that this may have been a ruse concocted by John C. Bennett to try to get Orson and the Twelve to turn against Joseph, or something like that. Is that—am I remembering that correctly?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. This is how John Taylor describes it later on: it’s linked to plural marriage, but it’s also linked to John C. Bennett and his immoralities.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: John Taylor says, “Orson had some difficulties arising out of the introduction of the Celestial Order of Marriage. It seems from remarks made in conversation that I had with him afterwards that he did not fully realize or comprehend the situation. When I saw that he was very severely tried, I talked to him for nearly two hours to prevent, if possible, his apostasy.” And so while all this stuff is going on, Joseph is unable to talk to Orson himself directly either because he has to go into hiding. This is after the failed assassination attempt on Lilburn Boggs, and so the apostles are trying to work with him because Joseph can’t, and when they realize that Orson is kind of going the other direction, they reach out to Joseph, and Joseph actually says that they should ordain Amasa Lyman to take his place in the Twelve.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: So it sounds like in Joseph Smith’s mind, he’s out of the Twelve, and acting upon that idea that we’re going to replace him, these three apostles, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, and George A. Smith, excommunicate him on August 20, 1842, so—

Scott Woodward: Okay.

Casey Griffiths: —there is an official excommunication that happens here. However, in the weeks that follow—this is where the plot twist happens—at least three different people come forward and say that Sarah was involved with John C. Bennett, not Joseph Smith.

Scott Woodward: This is Orson’s wife.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, that they had seen Sarah Pratt and John C. Bennett in kind of compromising situations and that what was happening was she was actually having an affair with John C. Bennett. And Wilford Woodruff during this time writes in his journal, “John C. Bennett was the ruin of Orson Pratt.” So this is kind of the machinations of John C. Bennett to wreck their marriage.

Scott Woodward: Why would Sarah go along with that and say that Joseph Smith came to her? Like, that just—that is just painful.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. It’s tough.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: There’s a lot of behind-the-scenes stuff that’s happening here, too.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Like what?

Casey Griffiths: Well, in September—so he’s excommunicated, but only three apostles are there in August. In September Orson publishes a statement in The Wasp, that’s the Nauvoo newspaper run by William Smith, and he denies that he had “renounced The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” and says, “I believe that its doctrine, which has been published extensively in both America and Europe, is pure, according to the scriptures of eternal truth. There is something in it which seems to whisper that God is there. The luster of truth cannot be dimmed by the shadows of error or falsehood, neither will the petty difficulties existing in its votaries weaken its influence or destroy its power.” So he publicly comes back and says, I haven’t denied that I think the church is true. I still believe the doctrine of the church comes from God—

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: —but there’s wiggle room there to say, but I’m suspicious of the prophet.

Scott Woodward: He calls that “petty difficulties existing amongst us.”

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So he’s faithful to the gospel during this time, but he has these challenges. What sort of makes him turn the corner is that John C. Bennett, who now has been kicked out of Nauvoo, begins to make really violent statements. Like, he even says he would “drink the heart’s blood,” that’s the direct quote, “of those who had expelled him from Nauvoo.” And during this time John C. Bennett actually reaches out to Orson and Sarah and wants to enlist them in this plot to kidnap Joseph Smith and take him to Missouri.

Scott Woodward: John C. Bennett’s the worst.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. Yeah, so in response to this, Orson Pratt actually takes the letter to Joseph Smith and publishes another excerpt in The Wasp where he says, “Dr. John C. Bennett had declared that he’d received a letter from me and from my wife that we were preparing to leave and expose Mormonism. I wish, through the medium of your paper, to say to the public that said statements are entirely false. We have never at any time written any letter or letters to Dr. John C. Bennett on any subject whatever, neither are we preparing to leave and expose Mormonism, but intend to make Nauvoo our residence and Mormonism our motto.”

Scott Woodward: So John C. Bennett had claimed that Orson and Sarah were leaving the church.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And they were getting ready to expose Mormonism. He had published that.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, and this incident sort of causes Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt to reconcile. So a little bit after this, in January 1843, Joseph Smith calls the Twelve together, and he tells them that, “Orson had confessed his sins and manifested a deep repentance.” And then when they bring up Orson’s excommunication, Joseph Smith actually says, well, there was only three of you. There has to be a majority of the quorum, which is at least seven of the apostles, for the excommunication to be efficacious. So that’s a major question, too, is was Orson Pratt actually excommunicated?

Scott Woodward: So Joseph says the excommunication was not legal in that fullest sense.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. We have the minutes of this meeting. Brigham Young actually asked about Amasa Lyman taking Orson Pratt’s place in the Twelve.

Scott Woodward: Because that had already been done at this point, right? They had already ordained him?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, he’d been ordained, but again, only by three apostles. So Joseph Smith actually says, well, that was valid, but do you have an issue bringing Orson back into the Twelve? You could be an apostle and not be a member of the Twelve.

Scott Woodward: Wait, so Joseph says it was valid, but Brigham says, so what about bringing Orson back into the Twelve?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, and Joseph says, I think you should do it. And then there’s actually some tough stuff. Like, Joseph Smith tells Orson directly, I never proposed to Sarah, and then he actually tells Orson, he counsels him to get a divorce from Sarah. But then he also says, according to the minutes, if you do not do this, I shall never throw it in your teeth. In other words, I’m not going to criticize you if you decide to stay with her. He gives him a blessing and says, “I prophesy in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that it will not be six months before you have things that will make you glad you have not left us. Orson, the latter part of your life shall be more joyful than the former.” And then Joseph Smith actually announces that Amasa Lyman is going to be brought into the First Presidency. So he tries to get Amasa Lyman to take Sidney Rigdon’s place in the First Presidency instead, which we’ve talked about in previous episodes.

Scott Woodward: Wait, wait. So does Orson Pratt divorce Sarah?

Casey Griffiths: Eventually, yeah. Decades later, they do, and Sarah leaves the church, and Orson, near the, in the later part of his life, says he does believe that Sarah was unfaithful to him. Sarah writes an exposé where she repeats the claim that Joseph Smith had proposed to her, but even that document’s questionable. We don’t think she wrote it, because in two places she’s referred to as Mrs. Orson Hyde, which is an error that it feels like she probably wouldn’t have made. And so Orson, later on in his life, thinks that she was unfaithful. She says that Joseph Smith had proposed to her. Joseph Smith openly says, I did not, and that day in Nauvoo, the day the whole meeting of the Quorum takes place, Orson and Sarah are both re-baptized again. It’s January. They get re-baptized in the Mississippi River.

Scott Woodward: Not because they were excommunicated.

Casey Griffiths: Not because they were excommunicated. Back then a re-baptism could just be a, I’m recommitting to the faith. I’m moving into a new period of my life, basically. So—

Scott Woodward: Literally renewing your baptismal covenants.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that is another wrinkle. Like, was Orson actually excommunicated? Three apostles did excommunicate him, and they ordained a replacement in the Twelve. How does that affect his seniority in the Twelve?

Scott Woodward: OK.

Casey Griffiths: The two Orsons have these two questions kind of lingering over their seniority within the Twelve.

Scott Woodward: Okay, so during Brigham Young’s presidency he’s also going to deal with other questions about seniority.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: For instance, seniority in the original Twelve is determined by age, as we’ve said, but Brigham Young in 1861 will clarify that seniority should be determined by the date of ordination. Ah-ha. And now this causes a significant change because Wilford Woodruff was seen as senior to John Taylor because John was 20 months younger than Wilford. However, John had been ordained three months before Wilford. So he was now advanced before Wilfrid Woodruff in seniority. So it seems like Brigham Young appears to have been looking to the future where, if these questions were not resolved now, they might cause conflict later. In fact, he says that he spoke of it now, “because the time would come when a dispute might arise about it.” So that’s something interesting. So 1861, mark that date. Then another wrinkle in the story comes from the fact that during this time at least six other people are ordained apostles, but they’re never placed in the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles for various reasons. And this is—this might be a new concept to a lot of people, that you could actually be ordained an apostle, but not serve in the Twelve.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, the title is Apostle at Large, which has got to be the coolest title I’ve ever heard. And we have had an example of an apostle at large as late as the 1970s. Alvin R. Dyer was the last one.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: But most people just assume you’re made an apostle—

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: —and you join the Quorum of the Twelve. That’s not always been the case. In fact, let me walk you through a couple of these.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, tell us about these six apostles at large.

Casey Griffiths: Okay. So the six apostles at large: Jedediah Grant, this is the father of Heber J. Grant. He’s ordained an apostle by Brigham Young in April 1854 to join the First Presidency. He serves in the First Presidency, he’s an apostle, but he dies in 1856, and he’s never formally inducted into the Quorum of the Twelve. There’s an example. He’s ordained an apostle so he can serve in the First Presidency.

Scott Woodward: Got it.

Casey Griffiths: John Willard Young, this is one of Brigham Young’s sons, is ordained an apostle on February 22, 1855. He acts as an assistant to Brigham Young and the First Presidency, but he’s never brought into the Quorum of the Twelve, and after Brigham Young’s death, he’s sustained as a counselor to the Twelve, but he’s released from that calling in 1891, passes away in 1924. So you’ve got technically an apostle at large running around for 30-some-odd years without an attachment to the Twelve. Daniel Hanmer Wells. This is Daniel H. Wells. He’s ordained an apostle January 4, 1857, and he goes into the First Presidency to replace Jedediah Grant when he passes away.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: He’s made a counselor to the Twelve when Brigham Young passes away, but he’s never brought into the quorum either.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, this is the position we don’t hear about today, being a counselor to the Twelve.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. Joseph Angell Young, this is another one of Brigham Young’s sons, he’s ordained an apostle on February 4, 1864. He’s never made a member of the First Presidency or the Twelve, and he passes away on August 5, 1875. Brigham Young, Jr.—these are the two, last two, that actually caused some of the controversy. Brigham Young, Jr. is ordained an apostle by Brigham Young on February 4, 1864. Four years later, he’s brought into the Quorum of the Twelve. He passes away on April 11, 1903.

Scott Woodward: He does become a member of the Twelve.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, but there’s a four-year gap from his ordination to him being formally brought into the Twelve. The last one is a person you might have heard of named Joseph F. Smith.

Scott Woodward: I have heard of him.

Casey Griffiths: Joseph F. Smith is ordained an apostle by Brigham Young July 1, 1866, so after Brigham Young, Jr., but he’s brought into the Twelve in 1867 before Brigham Young, Jr. He serves in the First Presidency as a counselor and later as president of the Church from 1901 to 1918.

Scott Woodward: The wrinkle here could be between Brigham Young, Jr. and Joseph F. Smith in terms of who should be the president.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. Brigham Young, Jr. is ordained an apostle first, but Joseph F. Smith is brought into the Quorum of the Twelve first. So—

Scott Woodward: Ah, shoot.

Casey Griffiths: —is it your ordination or you being brought into the Quorum of the Twelve? Remember, Gordon B. Hinckley said you’re made a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, and then you outlive everybody else, so . . .

Scott Woodward: That was not yet established. So Brigham Young doesn’t think that being an Apostle automatically means you’re part of the Quorum of the Twelve, clearly.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: In fact, he even says that once: he says, “Because a man is ordained an apostle, it does not prove that he belongs to the quorum of the apostles.”

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: So that’s, again, kind of a foreign concept to a lot of members of the church today.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: But, you know, scripturally, I think there’s a precedent here. There’s a lot of scholars who believe that Paul the apostle was not a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. He’s called to be an apostle, an apostolos, one who’s sent out, called by Christ to be a witness of him, but may have not served in the Twelve, which is, again, an interesting precedent there.

Casey Griffiths: So we’ve got a wrinkle here, right?

Scott Woodward: Yeah. So walk us through the wrinkle.

Casey Griffiths: In the October 1868 General Conference, Joseph F. Smith is listed before Brigham Young, Jr., but in the April 1869 conference, just six months later, Brigham Young, Jr. is listed as senior to Joseph F. Smith.

Scott Woodward: Oh, jeez.

Casey Griffiths: Most of the next few decades, Joseph F. is in the First Presidency, so it doesn’t come up a whole lot.

Scott Woodward: Uh-huh.

Casey Griffiths: Brigham Young, Jr. stays in the Quorum of the Twelve.

Scott Woodward: But the question remains, who is senior?

Casey Griffiths: Who’s senior? There’s this ticking time bomb, and they know that they’re going to have to solve it eventually, because nobody knows which one of these two guys is senior. So it’s not resolved until 1900. The First Presidency, now it’s led by Lorenzo Snow—Lorenzo Snow actually sits the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve down and has a discussion. In fact, Joseph F. Smith, who has a major stake in this, records the meeting. He said, “We met with eleven apostles and partook of the sacrament. Brigham Young, Jr. blessed the emblems. It was unanimously decided that acceptance of a member into the Council, or the Quorum of the Twelve, fixed his rank or position in the Apostleship. The Apostles took precedence from the date they entered the Quorum. The ordination to the Apostleship under the hands of any Apostle, other than to fill a vacancy in the Quorum and authorized by the general authorities of the Church, did not count in precedence.” So . . .

Scott Woodward: Ooh, so mark 1900 as the year that begins to establish what President Hinckley told Larry King.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: You join the Twelve, and then you outlive everybody else.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: So it’s about joining the Twelve, not being ordained an apostle.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. And Joseph F. Smith records this. Like, he writes out the rule we still follow today: “If the First Presidency were dissolved by the death of the president, his counselors, having been ordained apostles in the Quorum of the Twelve, would resume their places in the quorum according to the seniority of their ordinations into that quorum. This important ruling settles a long unsettled point and is most timely,” and it really was timely, because within the next year, Lorenzo Snow is getting close to death; George Q. Cannon, who’s actually next in seniority, passes away; and Joseph F. Smith becomes president of the church from 1901 to 1918 when Lorenzo Snow passes away. Brigham Young, Jr., who to his everlasting credit, was in the meeting and apparently unanimously sustained this decision, passes away in 1903. We got Joseph F. as president of the church for seventeen years instead of Brigham Young, Jr. for two, and that has to do with them humbly sitting down, discussing, and then deciding the final issue unanimously.

Scott Woodward: That is really interesting. So we could have had another Brigham Young as president of the church, had this not been worked out the way it was worked out.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. We’ve had three Joseph Smiths. We could have had two Brigham Youngs if they hadn’t sat down and kind of worked this out. So, again, these are technicalities, but you can see how interesting they are, right?

Scott Woodward: They’re consequential technicalities.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. You’re not—you get ordained an apostle, you’re not brought into the Quorum of the Twelve. How does that affect your seniority? Gordon B. Hinckley says you get brought into the Quorum of the Twelve, and you outlive everybody else.

Scott Woodward: Bam.

Casey Griffiths: Now, we’re going to go back to something we talked about earlier: the fate of the two Orsons.

Scott Woodward: The two Orsons.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So let’s talk about that.

Scott Woodward: Okay, so you’ve got apostles at large, quorum seniority. These are two questions Brigham Young is dealing with during his tenure. By far the most vexing of the questions comes from the Orson problem. Can we call it that?

Casey Griffiths: The Orsons. Yep.

Scott Woodward: The Orsons quandary. The brief estrangement of Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt from the church and from the Quorum of the Twelve, okay? So Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt’s past struggles are now going to raise a few questions about seniority in the Twelve. Both have technically left the church, maybe? Maybe that’s too strong?

Casey Griffiths: Maybe? Sort of?

Scott Woodward: Orson Hyde technically left the church. Orson Pratt was excommunicated, but then apparently wasn’t. It was kind of overridden there by Joseph Smith because there wasn’t a full quorum to do it, etc., so their past is a little tenuous here, their past relationship with the church and with the Quorum of the Twelve. They both were accepted back fully into the Quorum of the Twelve without question.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Except for this question: how does that affect their seniority? So according to John Taylor, it was George A. Smith, one of Brigham’s counselors at the time, that raised the question about the status of the two Orsons, and John Taylor says that he had been aware of the correctness of George A. Smith’s position here and had been for years, but had chosen not to bring it up, not to bring up any question of that kind. John said that he personally cared nothing about the matter, and moreover entertained a very high esteem for both the parties named, both Orsons, but at the same time, John Taylor recognized that complications might hereafter arise unless this matter was adjusted. And this is—by the way, this is going to affect John Taylor directly, right?

Casey Griffiths: He’s next, yeah.

Scott Woodward: He’s next. If it’s not the Orsons, then it’s him. And so if they go under him, he’s the next president of the church. If they’re above him, then he’s not. So Brigham Young may also have been hesitant to address this matter, and he could have adjusted their seniority back in 1861 when he adjusted the John Taylor/Wilford Woodruff seniority situation, but he didn’t. Strangely, this matter wasn’t brought up by church leaders, but by a reporter, actually. They’re the ones that agitate this question, in none less a publication than the Salt Lake Tribune, Casey, which at that time was pretty much an anti-Mormon newspaper.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And they raised this question in 1871 in an article entitled, “The Two Orsons and the Question of Succession.”

Casey Griffiths: Which, by the way, is a killer title for an article.

Scott Woodward: Maybe that’ll be the title for our episode.

Casey Griffiths: Maybe.

Scott Woodward: The reporter wrote that nothing but an extraordinary act of legislation of his quorum, sustained by the voice of the entire church, could displace Orson Hyde, and that would amount to a grand impeachment, he says. But the reporter also praises Orson Pratt, saying, “The best part of Mormon theology has been derived after Joseph Smith from Parley and Orson Pratt. Orson was also the master of nearly all the Utah Protestants, and of all the thinkers and rebels of Mormonism, but today, they have outgrown their teacher, being younger and consequently more progressive. But Orson’s disciples still venerate their old master, whose example they are following in measuring intellects with Brigham Young and refusing to be subdued by the absolute will and mind of any mortal man.” Wow. So the question is raised initially in 1871 by a newspaper reporter there, kind of publicly here. But then it’s brought to the fore in the councils of the church in 1874 after Brigham Young becomes gravely ill, and anytime the senior apostle becomes gravely ill, the question of succession, no doubt, weighs heavily on the mind, so that next year, Brigham Young reorganizes seniority in the quorum one more time. According to George Q. Cannon, “Not long before Brigham Young’s death, a number of the Twelve and leading elders were in Sanpete County, when in the presence of the congregation in the meeting house, he, Brigham Young, turned to President John Taylor and said, “Here is the man whose right it is to preside over the council in my absence, he being the senior apostle.” And John Taylor actually writes about this moment. He said, “Brigham Young brought up the subject of seniority and then stated that John Taylor was the man that stood next to him and that where he was not, John Taylor presides. He also made the statement that Brother Hyde and Brother Pratt were not in their right positions in the quorum.” So what seems to be resolved at this point, and is articulated even more clearly after his death, is that Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt were to be relegated beneath John Taylor because, here’s the phrase they use, “John Taylor held the oldest ordination without interruption of any man among the apostles.” There it is. In fact, shortly after Brigham Young’s death, George Q. Cannon announces in the October 1877 General Conference that Brigham Young had been, “moved upon to place John Taylor ahead of two others,” the two Orsons, “until, by the unanimous voice of the apostles, he, John Taylor, was acknowledged the senior apostle, holding the oldest ordination without interruption of any man among the apostles.” There’s the catch: “without interruption,” right? So here the rule now becomes established that seniority is determined by longest continuous service in the Quorum of the Twelve, and that’s why John Taylor becomes the new president of the church, not Orson Hyde and not Orson Pratt, and he’ll serve from 1877 to 1887, for a decade. Really interesting turn of events, Casey.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, and there’s all kinds of opinions out there on why Brigham Young made this move. The cynical argument made by some historians was that he didn’t like Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt. He criticizes Orson Hyde once very publicly. This is in the 1850s. And Orson Pratt, as we’ve talked about, kind of saw his role as, you know, the questioner.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: When Brigham Young brought up something, Orson Pratt a lot of times would question it.

Scott Woodward: They were sparring buddies, in a sense.

Casey Griffiths: They were sparring buddies.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: They also praise each other. They work closely together.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: I think that that might be a little cynical, to be honest with you.

Scott Woodward: To say that this is Brigham Young’s last jab at the two Orsons.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, I’ve heard people say that. I don’t think the evidence substantiates that, do you?

Casey Griffiths: I don’t think so either. Now, there’s the practical argument that you could just say Brigham Young was getting up in years, and so was Orson Hyde, and so was Orson Pratt. Orson Hyde passes away the year after Brigham Young does, so he would have only been president of the church for one year.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And Orson Pratt passes away in 1881, so he would have only been president of the church for four years.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: So you could argue it from that practical matter, but I prefer to take the faith-filled approach to say, Brigham Young was moved upon by the voice of inspiration. Like, B. H. Roberts—this captures my feeling, okay? He said, “In those changes made under the direction of President Young, by which Elder Taylor was assigned his proper place in the Quorum of the Apostles, may we not discern the inspiration of God, preparing the way for the man whom the Lord designated to succeed to the leadership of his people when President Young should be called home?” I see that. I mean, the 1877 to 1887 is some of the most difficult times in the history of the church. It’s when the anti-polygamy crusade and the kind of conflict with the federal government in the United States kicks into high gear, and I’m just really grateful that John Taylor was the guy that was leading the church during this time, because it was rough—really rough.

Scott Woodward: Brutal.

Casey Griffiths: And John Taylor withstood the test. Like, he was the right person for the right time, which is how I feel about every president of the church, to be honest with you.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: And I also want to point out, you and I were talking before this, and the question was, did Orson Hyde and Orson Pratt ever speak out against this? Did they act upset?

Scott Woodward: Were they bitter? Angry? Upset? Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: To their credit, when I was prepping this outline, I couldn’t find anything where they did. In fact, when John Taylor moved to reorganize the First Presidency three years later, Orson Hyde’s gone by then, but Orson Pratt actually spoke in favor, like, was very influential in getting the other Quorum of the Twelve members together to reorganize the First Presidency. So these guys are heroes, you know?

Scott Woodward: And to us, it seems like, well, doesn’t that just operate really smoothly anyway? Don’t we just get a new First Presidency? But that process was not yet smoothed by this point. In fact, there were some members of the quorum who dissented at that suggestion that there be a reorganization of the First Presidency for various reasons.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And, yeah, so you see Orson Pratt here as peacemaker and reconciler trying to bring the quorum members together to sustain a new First Presidency.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. In fact, let me read a statement. This is from Orson Pratt when they’re having this discussion on if they should reorganize the First Presidency. He says, “Every time we, the Twelve,” and he’s the only remaining original member of the 1835 Twelve.

Scott Woodward: Good point.

Casey Griffiths: He says, “Every time the Twelve thought upon the subject of organizing the Church, we saw that one council, the most important of all, was still vacant: the First Presidency. Could we ignore it? No. We therefore considered the propriety of organizing it at the present conference, and Brother John Taylor, by the voice of his brother in the Twelve, being the person holding the legal right to that office, was selected to occupy the position of the President of the whole Church.”

Scott Woodward: He’s a team player here, all the way to the end.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, and, I mean, this is real humility, right? Where he has his conflicts and he has his issues and his ups and downs, but man alive, Brigham Young at one point said, if you chopped up Brother Orson into one-inch parts, every part would cry out that Mormonism was now true.

Scott Woodward: Yeah.

Casey Griffiths: Scott, you and I have both been to Orson Pratt’s grave in the Salt Lake Cemetery. You know what he has chiseled into his headstone.

Scott Woodward: “My body now sleeps, but my testimony lives and shall endure forever.”

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. What a guy.

Scott Woodward: That was a lot, Casey. Let me synthesize this into a final few points.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: So by the death of Brigham Young in 1877, several important questions about succession have now been resolved, namely, one: the senior apostle becomes the president of the church. The First Presidency can now be reorganized. Number two: in addition, here, Brigham Young sets the precedent that seniority is now determined by when a person was ordained into the Twelve and that seniority is based on continuous service in the Quorum of the Twelve. Two important points.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah.

Scott Woodward: And then—

Casey Griffiths: The Orsons Rule, we’ll call it, yeah.

Scott Woodward: The Orsons Rule. And then third point, actually a little bit later after Brigham Young’s presidency, during Lorenzo Snow’s presidency, church leaders resolved the question about apostles at large, determining that it was not their ordination as an apostle, but rather entrance into the Quorum of the Twelve that would then determine their seniority. Those are, I think, are established during or shortly after the Brigham Young presidency, which still is how things operate today.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So we’re gradually having the rules of succession revealed to us, but other questions still linger.

Scott Woodward: There’s another question? Oh, jeez, Casey. Okay.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. So we’ve still got a couple things to work out. For instance, when Brigham Young dies, John Taylor doesn’t immediately reorganize the First Presidency because there’s not agreement. That precedent wasn’t fully set as part of succession.

Scott Woodward: Meaning what?

Casey Griffiths: Meaning they hadn’t figured out yet that they should just reorganize the First Presidency right away. There’s a three-year gap after Joseph Smith’s death before Brigham Young reorganizes the First Presidency, three-year gap after Brigham Young’s death, and then there’s also a gap after John Taylor’s death, too, before they get together and all get on board with reorganizing the First Presidency.

Scott Woodward: That’s not fully ironed out yet. Okay.

Casey Griffiths: However, that’s not the most serious thing. The most serious thing is still this question of, does the senior apostle become the church president?

Scott Woodward: I thought that was established.

Casey Griffiths: It feels like that’s set in stone, but in our next episode we’re going to talk about a person who one historian says gives the most serious challenge to the question of succession by senior apostle, and I’m pretty sure that that person’s identity is going to surprise you.

Scott Woodward: Cliffhanger.

Casey Griffiths: We’re going to leave it there. Until next week, stay tuned.

Scott Woodward: Ooh! Can’t wait. Thank you for listening to this episode of Church History Matters. Next week, Casey and I discuss the last time in our history when an Apostle seriously challenged the idea that the most senior Apostle would become the next Church President, and we’ll talk about how this issue was finally settled once and for all. If you’re enjoying Church History Matters, we’d appreciate it if you could take a moment to subscribe, rate, review, and comment on the podcast. That makes us easier to find. Today’s episode was produced by Scott Woodward and edited by Nick Galieti and Scott Woodward, with show notes and transcript by Gabe Davis. Church History Matters is a podcast of Scripture Central, a nonprofit which exists to help build enduring faith in Jesus Christ by making Latter-day Saint scripture and church history accessible, comprehensible, and defensible to people everywhere. For more resources to enhance your gospel study, go to scripturecentral.org, where everything is available for free because of the generous donations of people like you. And while we try very hard to be historically and doctrinally accurate in what we say on this podcast, please remember that all views expressed in this and every episode are our views alone and do not necessarily reflect the views of Scripture Central or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thank you so much for being a part of this with us.