Scott Woodward: From our brief survey of some of the various branches of the Restoration in this series, a few things have become apparent: First, it’s clear that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do not have a monopoly on a love of the Book of Mormon. Many of our Restoration cousins also deeply revere this sacred text, have their faith in Christ strengthened because of it, and draw near to God by abiding by its precepts. Second, and perhaps more puzzling to some Latter-day Saints, it’s also clear that we do not have a monopoly on God’s notice, God’s mercy, and God’s guidance in our church. In spite of many key differences between us, God also seems to be actively at work among many in the other Restoration branches as they seek Him in faith. So what are we to make of this? What does it mean for our church if God is guiding others as well? In this episode of Church History Matters, Casey and I sit down with Dr. Christopher Blythe, a gifted historian, author, fellow podcaster, and Joseph Smith Papers editor. Together we briefly overview two additional branches of the Restoration, the Hedrickites and Cutlerites, and then dig into these questions about how we reconcile God’s involvement in other faiths with the generally shared belief among Latter-day Saints that ours is God’s one and only authorized church, and not least because we believe we got succession right. Each of us shares why we choose to continue our membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in spite of other attractive alternatives. I’m Scott Woodward, and my co-host is Casey Griffiths, and today we dive into our fourteenth and final episode in this series dealing with succession in the presidency. Now let’s get into it.  

Casey Griffiths: Hello, Scott. 

Scott Woodward: Hello, Casey. 

Casey Griffiths: Hey, it’s good to be back here with you again, and— 

Scott Woodward: Yeah, man. 

Casey Griffiths: We’re trying to wrap up our longest series. Like, I just don’t know if we can kill this one off. There’s too much to talk about, and I could keep going I don’t know how long, if I had the choice, but all good things must come to an end, right? And so if we’re going to end, we really want to stick the landing. 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Today is, what, our fourteenth episode in this series? I think this might be our longest series we have ever done, Casey.

Casey Griffiths: And I’m going to take the blame because I love restoration movements, and even now, I’m sitting here thinking of five or six more that I want to talk about, but we got to keep moving. 

Scott Woodward: Momentum matters. Momentum matters. 

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. 

Scott Woodward: Yeah, to try to wrap this all up and put a bow on it today, we have invited one of our polyglot friends, one of our friends who seems to know a lot about everything, right? And especially about restoration branches, and we thought we could maybe wrap up this whole series with our good friend Christopher Blythe. Say hi, Chris. 

Christopher Blythe: Hey, guys. I’m so excited to be here. Thanks for having me on. 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. So excited to have you, man. 

Casey Griffiths: The reason why we brought you on is I don’t know anybody that knows more about different varieties of the Restoration than you do, and so we thought maybe you could do a couple really fast, and then we’d get your insights, but first, can I read your bio? Let’s find out a little bit about Chris. 

Scott Woodward: By the way, that’s, like, really high praise coming from Casey Griffiths, to say that you know more about the restoration branches than anyone he knows. That’s pretty awesome, Chris. 

Christopher Blythe: Oh, Casey’s an expert. I’d be saying the same thing to him.  

Casey Griffiths: Game recognizes game, Chris, is what I’m saying, so . . .

Christopher Blythe: That’s right. 

Scott Woodward: Oh. 

Christopher Blythe: Yes. 

Casey Griffiths: You teach me new things every time we talk together. That’s why we brought you on. So— 

Christopher Blythe: Same. 

Casey Griffiths: —here’s your bio: Christopher James Blythe is an assistant professor of English at Brigham Young University, where he teaches courses on folklore and Latter-day Saint literature. He has previously held positions at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute of Religious Scholarship and the Joseph Smith Papers from 2016 to 2022. Blythe was an editor for the Journal of Mormon History. He’s published extensively in academic journals, including Nova Religio, Journal of Religion, and Material Religion, and he also co-edited three volumes of the Joseph Smith Papers series and an edited collection, Open Canon: Scriptures of the Latter-day Saint Tradition, which I was fortunate to write a chapter in. So, Chris, thank you for including me in that. Open Canon‘s a great book, by the way. It deals with the scriptures associated with these different restoration movements. So, I wrote about the Levitical writings, which are the scriptures sometimes used by members of a group called the House of Aaron that’s in the West Desert of Utah. Cool, cool stuff. 

Christopher Blythe: Isn’t that cool? 

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: Yeah, that was a fun book to do. There’s so many different scriptural writings, sealed portions, and also really unique interpretations of the Book of Mormon and biblical scripture, so I loved putting together—and your article is definitely a highlight digging into this fantastic place that—you know, Casey actually took me out there in the West desert to meet members of House of Aaron, and it was awesome. 

Scott Woodward: That’s so cool. 

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, we hung out in their sanctuary, where they have all the temple furniture, like an altar of sacrifice and an altar of incense, and a menorah. Like, it was really cool. 

Christopher Blythe: Plus, like, an awesome sword.  

Casey Griffiths: And an awesome sword. And Chris took me to—what was it called: Hebron? Where there were, like, appearances of Gadianton robbers in the 19th century. 

Christopher Blythe: Oh, yeah! 

Scott Woodward: Holy cow. 

Casey Griffiths: Cool stuff. We’ve had some fun adventures, Chris, and . . . 

Christopher Blythe: Oh, we also went to the pyramid temple— 

Casey Griffiths: Oh, yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: —in Cedar City by the church of—what do they call themselves? The . . . 

Casey Griffiths: The Church of the Righteous Branch. 

Christopher Blythe: Yes. That’s right. 

Casey Griffiths: The elder from the Church of the Righteous Branch, who probably isn’t listening, gave us a five-hour first discussion on the church. It was so fun. You were—oh, man. That was one of my— 

Christopher Blythe: —and then asked us whether—I tell this story all the time because he asked us how we felt about it right before he was going to show us the temple, and I know if we would have said, “Brother, we’re ready to convert,” we would have gotten to go into that temple. 

Casey Griffiths: Yes. 

Christopher Blythe: Instead we said, well, it’s—we think you’re sincere. You’re a good guy, and we probably feel the same way about your teachings as you’d feel if we talked for five hours. And so we got to look at that temple from across the parking lot, remember? 

Casey Griffiths: Yes, and the parking lot was, like, a field of sagebrush, if I remember correctly, so . . . 

Christopher Blythe: That’s right! That’s right. 

Casey Griffiths: I also can’t neglect to add that Chris and his wife, Christine—Chris and Christine Blythe have an excellent podcast called Angels and Seerstones that deals with folklore in the Latter-day Saint tradition. I’m a fan as well. In fact, I’ve got a sticker on my water bottle for Angels and Seerstones, so . . . 

Christopher Blythe: Nice. 

Casey Griffiths: I listened to it this morning, and I contributed one of the voices to your most recent episode as well, so . . . 

Christopher Blythe: Yes, you did, and Casey has—he’s tried to get us contractually obligated to make sure he is always the voice of Joseph Smith, and I think we could do that. I think that’s a really good and strong voice from Casey, and—there’s no tooth whistle, I suppose, is the only thing we need for a Joseph Smith voice. 

Casey Griffiths: I’ll practice, I’ll see—“I saw a pillar of light above the bright—” Yeah, I’ll do the best that I can, but— 

Scott Woodward: Chris, how do I get a sticker for my water bottle? I want one. 

Christopher Blythe: Oh, man, I’m gonna just come give you one sometime, Scott. 

Scott Woodward: Yes. 

Christopher Blythe: Our next order—and once you guys have Church History Matters stickers, I am using this Stanley cup that I hold right here. It’s gonna be a Church History Matters. 

Scott Woodward: Yes. 

Casey Griffiths: You’re on board with the Church History Matters swag. 

Scott Woodward: Casey, why don’t we have swag yet for Church History Matters? That is a major oversight. 

Casey Griffiths: Only because we don’t have people as good as Chris’s people who produced Chris’s swag, which Chris has good swag. I think I’ve got two or three stickers from the Blythes, including an MHA sticker and a big sticker of Juanita Brooks. Everybody walks up and looks at my water bottle and asks if that’s my grandma, and I say, no, it’s Juanita Brooks, so . . . 

Christopher Blythe: Grandma stickers is a great idea, though. 

Casey Griffiths: Yeah! 

Scott Woodward: What an idea.

Christopher Blythe: Very cool. I’d love a sticker of my grandma. 

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. 

Scott Woodward: So, Chris, in your book, Open Canon, you mentioned in a previous conversation we had that there’s a chapter about Sidney Rigdon’s revelations in there. 

Christopher Blythe: Yes. 

Scott Woodward: Give us 30 seconds on that chapter. What’s that chapter about again? 

Christopher Blythe: This is from Jay Burton, who’s an archivist at the church, and the chapter is on 200 pages of revelations that Sidney Rigdon produced after the showdown with Brigham Young, after August 8, and really in the 1860s. 

Scott Woodward: Wow. 

Christopher Blythe: He led the second church he founded after leaving The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and there he led it mainly by letter, and he would send these revelations, and they’re full of stuff. I don’t think these are revelations that I would accept in my scripture for my personal scriptural canon, but here was a man that had such a close relationship to Joseph Smith, so even when it’s just his thoughts, his ideas, I’m still interested in that, right? What’s he saying? 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: And, Scott, I don’t want to spoil anything. He thinks that the eskimo are Nephites. 

Scott Woodward: Whoa. 

Casey Griffiths: Wow.  

Scott Woodward: That’s in there? That’s in the revelations of Sidney? 

Christopher Blythe: That’s in the revelations. He says 2 Nephi 3 promises that Joseph’s—you know, son of Lehi’s—posterity should continue, and, of course, it’s easy to explain how they would continue amongst the people of the Americas, but he says, well, we have to figure out where those people are, and so he comes and argues that three descendants of Joseph made their way up north and created the tribes associated with the— 

Scott Woodward: Eskimos. 

Christopher Blythe: —the Alaskan country. 

Scott Woodward: Wow. Okay. There you go. So— 

Christopher Blythe: That’s fun, huh? 

Scott Woodward: Interesting. Okay. A little teaser for that book: Open Canon: Scriptures of the Latter-day Saint Tradition. Man, well, Chris, you’re so fun. We brought you here because we’ve gotten feedback from some of our listeners as we’ve gone through succession in our own branch of the Restoration, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which is the makeup of most of our listeners. It’s their tradition, but we also wanted to venture into some of the break-offs of the Restoration, which we’ve done for the last several episodes. We’ve talked about—let’s see, Casey: What? The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonites). The— 

Casey Griffiths: The Strangites. 

Scott Woodward: Church of Jesus Christ (Strangites). 

Casey Griffiths: They’re The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Scott Woodward: That’s right. And then we did Community of Christ with Andrew Bolton and the FLDS kind of Mormon fundamentalism movements with Brian Hales, and, Chris, we’ve gotten feedback from people saying like, well, when are you going to do this one? Are you going to talk about the Hedrickites? Are you going to talk about the Cutlerites? Are you going to talk about the Remnant Church? I mean, there’s so many other branches of the Restoration that this series could really go on for a really long time, so— 

Christopher Blythe: These people are never satisfied.  

Scott Woodward: Like, come on. Come on, right? Seriously. We’re trying, guys, but . . . So what we want to do for the next few minutes right now is just we’re going to mention one of these branches, and we just want you to brain dump for, like, five to ten minutes on what you want to tell us about these, because, like Casey said, you know so much about all of this, and these could each be their own hour-long episodes, maybe even their own series, but we’re just trying to wrap this up, people, okay? We’re putting a bow on it today. This is our final episode. So, Casey, do you want to start us out? Do you want to pick one and have Chris—maybe do a little lightning round here with Chris? Where do you want them to start? 

Casey Griffiths: Yes, and I want to acknowledge one thing really fast: One group we’ve been asked about is the Wightites, Lyman Wight’s group.

Scott Woodward: Oh, yeah. 

Casey Griffiths: We actually reached out to Mel Johnson, who’s the expert about that and had so much good stuff we decided we want to do a whole episode on them down the road. So my apologies to Mel. He’s going to help us out later on, but the two specifically that people have asked me about the most are the Hedrickites, which are formerly known as the Church of Christ but also popularly known as the Church of the Temple Lot—they own part of the Temple Lot, and the Cutlerites. So, Chris, I’d love if we could do the Hedrickites first— 

Christopher Blythe: Yeah! 

Casey Griffiths: —and then talk a little bit about the Cutlerites. So give us a bird’s eye view of the Hedrickite, the Church of Christ, Church of the Temple Lot. 

Christopher Blythe: Right. Church of Christ (Temple Lot) is the Hedrickites. It was founded by Granville Hedrick in the 1860s, and this is a really interesting church for a lot of reasons. You know, one, as you’ve already alluded to, they own a portion of the original temple lot in Independence, Missouri. This is the New Jerusalem as predicted in the Book of Mormon itself to be founded on this continent, and they own a portion—you know, we have the plat of Zion, we know there’s going to be twenty-four temples, or at least Joseph is conceiving that in the 1830s, but the cornerstones are plotted in this first of the temples. And they, in a long story, a huge trial that was held in—what was it? The 1890s? The Temple Lot Church becomes owners of this property, and that’s pretty awesome. Many Latter-day Saints, when they visit Independence, have stopped by this little church, and— 

Scott Woodward: Oh, yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: —unfortunately, the apostle that used to sit there and talk to people and, you know, argue with little Latter-day Saint children and so on, who was so fun, but definitely was a sort of Bible-bashing guy, would bring you in, and he would show you the stones that they found and recovered on their property and explain their doctrine, and they have fifty tracts that they’re trying to circulate and make points like, you know, there shouldn’t be a First Presidency in the church and sealing is not a doctrine that Jesus Christ taught, therefore it shouldn’t be taught in the church. I think the Hedrickites are so interesting because they’re really influenced by David Whitmer, one of the three witnesses, who leaves the church in the 1830s. David is upset by early changes in the church, early developments. He thought that the revelations that Joseph received should never be revised. He argued that we should use the Book of Commandments instead of the Doctrine and Covenants, so the 1833 publication. 

Scott Woodward: Oh, okay, yeah. The earliest form of the Doctrine and Covenants, yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: Yeah. And so Hedrickites still do that today, but ultimately they usually would just say that their scriptures are the Bible, especially the New Testament, and the Book of Mormon. Really interesting group. They have a membership that dates back to the 1860s that traveled from a sort of unaffiliated branch of the church that was already divided, you know, never really gave affiliation to Brigham Young, and then followed this man, Granville Hedrick, and ultimately John E. Page, one of the Twelve Apostles who didn’t side with Brigham Young, would become a prominent member of this young faith, but most of their members date from a RLDS schism that happened in the early 20th century where the schism that was upset with the prophet at the time, Frederick M. Smith, instead of starting a new church, decided to just join up with the church across the street, the Church of Christ (Temple Lot). So it’s an interesting story of going back and forth. They even made a decision that if you were RLDS, you didn’t need to be rebaptized. You could come over. 

Casey Griffiths: Yeah, they had a shared priesthood for a little while, too, right? They recognized the priesthood in both movements. 

Christopher Blythe: Right. 

Casey Griffiths: And these guys, the Church of Christ (Hedrickite), really stand out, because if you go to the Temple Lot, there’s the Community of Christ Temple, which is rather striking. Across the street, white building, and then next door, a big lawn, and my understanding is that the portion of the Temple Lot they own is where the first of the twenty four temples that were going to be built in Zion was broken ground for. 

Christopher Blythe: Yeah. 

Casey Griffiths: I guess they’ve got the original of the twenty four temples that the saints were trying to build there. That’s valuable real estate to a lot of different movements. 

Christopher Blythe: Yes. I think that’s right. That’d be a pretty amazing responsibility to have if you own the property that’s going to be for the last days temple.

Casey Griffiths: I also think—didn’t they try to build the temple? 

Christopher Blythe: They did. 

Casey Griffiths: Gene Adams has done some good work on this, but he has the designs of the temple, and I think in the 1930s they actually excavated. They started construction, they dug out a hole for the foundation, but then the depression hit and they had financial challenges and they kind of left the hole there for ten or fifteen years until the city of Independence had them fill it in and then plant the lawn that’s there. So interesting little group. 

Christopher Blythe: You know, I think one of the things that’s fascinating about this group is that they had a schism from a man named Otto Fetting, and Otto Fetting professed to have been visited by John the Baptist, who was Elijah, and so he had a series of twelve, twenty four messages in which John the Baptist would wake him up at night and say, hey, we got to talk, and he’d go to the kitchen, wherever, and they’d sit down, and Otto would later write down what was expressed there, and it was all on the necessity of building this temple and last days events, and so we called this book of scripture that came from these transcripts of these conversations, The Word of the Lord, and there are—there’ve been I believe four different expressions of this Hedrickite schism, and a couple are still operating. So Hedrickites are a fascinating movement. They’re probably—you know, sometimes, you know, I hear numbers as high as, like, 10,000, and there are probably still several-thousand-member-strong congregations. They’ve tried to do missionary work in Mexico and—a pretty interesting movement.

Scott Woodward: Yeah, and Granville Hedrick, did he schism off of the Strangite movement? Or where did Granville, like, come from? 

Christopher Blythe: There’s this big argument, and I think we can show—they’re in a branch in—it’s in Illinois, and this branch has some influences of different groups that have come through at different times, and there might be a point that the whole branch is thinking Strang is the leader, but for the most part, in the story of the Hedrickites, at least, this is an independent branch that never really sides with one leader and eventually follows Granville Hedrick, who’s briefly going to think he’s the prophet, and eventually they weed some of those things down, so it’s a church just led by twelve apostles.

Scott Woodward: So there we go, a quick overview of the Hedrickites. 

Casey Griffiths: Okay. So the next church that we’ve been asked a lot about is found right off the Temple Lot. They have a little building in Independence, and they also go all the way back to Joseph Smith. They’re called the Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite). Alpheus Cutler founds this church. What can you tell us about them, Chris? 

Christopher Blythe: You know, Casey, this is where my interest in restoration branches first began. So my first four articles are all on the Cutlerites. I visited them in 2002. I visited their prophet, Stan Whiting, and he invited me to come over for lunch and hang out. He passed away a few years later, but what I thought was so interesting is that Stan said to me—he had just gotten back from a trip to Nauvoo where the temple had been completed there, and there was an open house, and he said, Chris, our church believes all of that stuff there, except the sealing room. This is really interesting. So here is a church that has continued the endowment ceremony in their own buildings since their founding in 1853, a little bit after, people that held to these Nauvoo teachings of Joseph Smith, even though they lost some things, they lost the idea of the sealing ordinance, which of course means so much to us, we see as the crowning rite of the temple, but here’s a group founded 1853. They even use—if you look at their sign, they refer to the reorganization of the church. So a reorganized portion of the church. They believe that after Joseph Smith’s death, there was—the church was rejected. They think the Nauvoo Temple wasn’t fully completed. Initially Alpheus Cutler was a member of the high council in Nauvoo, and after Joseph Smith’s death he said that he felt his soul was at stake to support Brigham Young, but on the trek West, things got difficult. Alpheus Cutler got older. Brigham Young had gone on to Utah. Alpheus Cutler believed that he’d been set apart to preach the gospel to Native Americans. Young wanted him to understand these keys fell under the apostleship, so there’s a bit of a fight there. Alpheus Cutler married five women in the Nauvoo Temple. 

Scott Woodward: Oh. 

Christopher Blythe: A couple of them died in the early 1850s. One seems to have left him, and one remained in the community, but he encouraged her to marry another man. So he put an end to plural marriage within his community just a few years—well, less than a decade—after Joseph Smith’s death. In the early records of this church, when they were organized, there’s a comment that says he suspended the practice of plural marriage until the coming of Christ, and so he had two daughters that were married to Heber C. Kimball. I think all of those things just resulted in this sort of disgruntled feelings towards Brigham Young. There is a really fascinating story about the Cutlerite ties to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and this story was published in the 1800s. It’s from Abram Kimball. Abram was one of Heber C. Kimball’s sons that was born to his mother, who was a Cutlerite, and he grew up, and everybody in the town who knew he was a descendant of Heber C. Kimball would call him Heber and Brigham and, you know, a bunch of insults for being a polygamist’s kid. At one point his Cutlerite uncle was headed to California for a gold rush, so he brought him along, and when he got to Utah, he met his father, Heber C. Kimball, and he writes the story of meeting, you know, assuming his dad was a terrible man, assuming all those things, but ultimately Abram’s going to have his own revelation there, and he converts to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He becomes a very well-known bishop in Utah. He goes back and talks to Alpheus Cutler, and he says—you know, his grandpa says, are you going to go get endowed? And he says, yeah. And he says, all right, that’s a good thing. And then Alpheus Cutler says, and I’ve wrestled with is this a—did Alpheus Cutler mean what he said here? But he said, I always knew Brigham was supposed to be the leader, but, you know, and the way he tells it, but I was too proud to stay here. 

Scott Woodward: Interesting. 

Christopher Blythe: I think that’s interesting, just the intersection between these people, because the most part, the Cutlerites didn’t do missionary work. They actually rejected the idea that after Joseph Smith’s death you should preach the gospel to anyone except the Native Americans. 

Scott Woodward: How big is their population now? What’s their membership? 

Christopher Blythe: Oh, they’re just down to about, you know, less than a dozen. 

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. 

Scott Woodward: Oh, wow. 

Christopher Blythe: But what’s interesting here is that the Hedrickites don’t have a First Presidency, but the Cutlerites don’t have a Quorum of Twelve Apostles, right? So there’s kind of a decision of how you’re going to organize these groups. But, yeah, you’re right, Scott: This is a small body of believers, but fierce believers. 

Scott Woodward: Twelve people today. 

Christopher Blythe: Yep. 

Scott Woodward: Whoa. 

Casey Griffiths: I went to their church in Independence, and there were four or five of them there, so I may have met, you know, a third of the church, and they were super kind, and they even lifted up the floor to show us where they had a font to do baptisms for the dead. It was really, really— 

Christopher Blythe: Yeah. 

Casey Griffiths: —it was like a hot tub, and they said they hadn’t done it in a couple years, and then I also said, do you still do the endowment? They said, yes. And then I asked about garments. Like, I said, do you wear the garment? And at that point the lady we were talking to, whose name I can’t recall, unfortunately, said, I probably shouldn’t talk about that, and I just respected her space and kind of moved away, but super nice people, and, again, they have that interesting wrinkle that they do still perform the endowment and baptisms for the dead, but . . . 

Christopher Blythe: Isn’t that cool?

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: So the Nauvoo Temple intended to have a public space on the main floor, the upstairs is for endowments, and then beneath the temple, you know, according to Joseph’s revelations in—what is that? 124? 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: We’re told that a baptismal font should be under the temple, and so, yeah, you have this building here where the baptismal font’s under the floor, then upstairs, they call it the upper room, and they call—they refer to the endowment as the upper room work. 

Scott Woodward: Okay. 

Christopher Blythe: So, all right in this tiny, little, modest building that could probably fit, I don’t know—a small Latter-day Saint branch could fit into this building, right? 

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. Very small.  

Christopher Blythe: Yeah. 

Scott Woodward: And it was helpful for me to know that Alpheus Cutler was a member of the Holy Order in Nauvoo, or the Anointed Quorum, which is kind of the proto temple workers. He was part of that original group who learned the temple ordinances from Joseph, and then who Joseph had—well, after Joseph’s death, then Brigham Young had those minister the ordinances to everybody else, right? Or at least all those who qualified at that time. Like, something like 5,000 members of the church in Nauvoo received their ordinances there before they had West, and this group called the Anointed Quorum are the ones who administer those ordinances, and so— 

Christopher Blythe: That’s right. 

Scott Woodward: —it’s helpful for me to know that Alpheus Cutler was a part of that original group, and so no wonder he held on to the temple ordinances—mostly. 

Christopher Blythe: Right? 

Scott Woodward: He does get rid of temple marriage for some reason. It sounds like maybe something to do with the pain of his own marriages and something about being tied into plural marriages, would you say? Is this part of the angst of Alpheus Cutler and why he may have cut off that ordinance? 

Christopher Blythe: You know, we have these kids born of plural marriage who are mocked in the community. 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: Alpheus Cutler’s only—own family members will change their names so they’re not identified with him, but one of the things I think is so interesting is that there was his second wife—I believe she was actually married to Porter Rockwell before she married Cutler. She was accused of being a witch in the community. People were told to tell these stories. 

Scott Woodward: My word. 

Christopher Blythe: And, you know, some people have argued, maybe this is about anxiety of plural marriage. So she had just—she was an outsider in the community even though she stayed. Pretty interesting. 

Scott Woodward: Wow. So anything else on the Cutlerites that we ought to know before we wrap this portion up?

Christopher Blythe: You know, I want to say that they have a wonderful book. It’s from Rupert Fletcher, their apostle. I think it was published in the ’60s, maybe ’70s. Rupert Fletcher bears his testimony throughout this book. It’s called Alpheus Cutler and the Church of Jesus Christ, and it includes a lot of conversation of mysteries and, you know, what I’d call esotericism about the endowment. You know, he points to all these scriptures which he thinks the endowment—is referencing the endowment in the Book of Mormon. He talks about Alma 12, you know, it’s given unto many to know the mysteries of God, nevertheless— 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: —you’re under a strict command not to share except where God wants you to. And he talks about section 84, about the two priesthoods, and how this is related to the endowment. It’s pretty exciting to me to see that sort of real theology and not, you know—so many tracts from smaller restoration churches are written against the big church— 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: —which you’d expect, right? But in this case, this is him testifying of scripture and thinking how these things work together. I think it’s—if I was going to recommend any reading on the Cutlerites, it would be my articles, but really this book.

Casey Griffiths: They gave me a copy of that book when I visited their building in Independence. Again, just very, very nice— 

Christopher Blythe: Great! 

Casey Griffiths: —nice, sweet people. Really enjoyed my visit. So, Chris, we want to move to the second part of our conversation, which is—boy, we could go on and on talking about all these restoration movements— 

Christopher Blythe: Oh, yeah. 

Casey Griffiths: —and the manifestations of the spirit among them, but talking about them has raised some questions with our listeners. Like, we got an email from one of our listeners, and I just want to read it because it captures maybe one of the things we want to sort of discuss and work through today, it says, “Hello, Professor Griffiths. Thank you for your podcast. It’s been amazing and faith-strengthening in so many ways. I’m not afraid of church history anymore. I have faith and confidence that God will help me work through anything I may find. I do have a few questions that I’m wrestling with right now, and I would really love your insights, as you’ve had a lot of experience with them. I didn’t anticipate the challenges and questions that would arise when listening to Josh Gehly speak about his church. He spoke about seeing miracles in his church and experiencing many gifts of the Spirit, their dreams, visions, the guidance of the Lord, and affairs of their church, healings, etc.” So he goes on to write, “When you interact with representatives and members of other churches, how do you reconcile their experiences and beliefs with our belief that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is God’s authorized church and has his priesthood? If God is guiding their church, too, then what does that even mean to say that our church is led and authorized by God?” Great question.  

Scott Woodward: Wow. Good question. 

Christopher Blythe: Yeah. I think the answer to this question is really similar to other churches around the world. I mean, this is the question—I think God reveals as much as people are willing to hear from Him. I do think we could talk about churches formed by, you know, con men and those sorts of things, but at the end of the day, I think most of the memberships of these communities, certainly broader than Hedrickites and Cutlerites, are people just trying to follow Christ, and so they’re doing it with the tools they have at their disposal, and I would love them all to be members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but I don’t think everybody’s called to be members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints today. I think God needs his people scattered out, and so—I was raised Anglican, and a couple generations before that, one of my lines is Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. My aunt—I had a great-aunt who was a well-known historian in that faith, and I’m just grateful for as much truth as people have a hold of. I will tell you a experience I had: I was a young man visiting a church in Manti, Utah. It’s not the True and Living Church, but a different church that was from the Mountain Saints, so they traced themselves to Brigham Young, but they’re a schism, and I watched a public sealing ceremony. So here I was, 14 years old—you know, 13, almost 14, joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a few years later I am—decided I’m really interested in all these schisms, all these different restorations, so I go out and visit them, and as I’m visiting this church, I witnessed this public sealing ceremony. It was pretty interesting, you know. They wrapped a cloth around it, so you—shut around the people’s hands. They announced this sealing blessing in a place that we would only see it in the temple, but I had a weird experience: I felt the burning of the spirit, and it kind of threw me for a loop: wait, what does that mean? And ultimately, I feel the spirit when I attend an Anglican baptism too, right? Here I was, a guy who’s never seen the sealing ceremony, and when I see it performed, even though I don’t think it was performed by the proper authority, I’ve had this feeling of its truthfulness. That’s kind of a weird experience, huh? But for me, I really think The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is where I see the fulfillment of prophecy. This is the church coming out of obscurity. I see a group that actually is fulfilling the apostolic commission of spreading the gospel throughout the world. There is no other restoration church that is doing that—can even have the imagination to try to conquer that, right? This is something that our church, our spiritual ancestors, were devoted to, and so I think about that prophecy, the fulfillment of these things, and I’m going to tell you guys something: I think that even though I respect all these faiths, when I hear our prophets speak, I know they’re special witnesses of Christ, right? Because I actually feel the impact of this, and so I have a witness of the truthfulness of this church, and I definitely had a moment there in my teens where I thought, you know, I joined The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I found out my own family had RLDS roots, and then I found out that there were all these different branches: I thought, wait a second. Which one’s real, and which one’s still continuing this message? I can remember the moment I knew I needed to serve a mission, and that, for me, was really the—the same reason why I would tell a Protestant that I believe in the Book of Mormon because I had Moroni’s promise, I could say to a member of any of these churches that I’m a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for the same reason: because the Holy Ghost testifies of truth. 

Scott Woodward: Casey, I don’t know about you, but I’ve gotten feedback from Josh Gehly. He did such a good job on our podcast. I had someone tell me, man, that guy speaks with such fervency and such conviction, man. Like, I was kind of starting to lean Bickertonite, you know, kind of joking with me, and that—and how Josh is talking all about gifts of the spirit that they experience in their branch of the restoration and how, you know, people sometimes are speaking in tongues and revelation is helping them choose their leaders, and, you know, speaking in generalities is fine, but when you get that concrete, like, that does start to get some of us. You know, we start to think, geez, like, what does that mean about our church if other churches are also experiencing these kinds of things, and they seem fairly authentic in their movement, right? You know, shout out to Josh for great job on the podcast, but that now created some more questions . . . 

Casey Griffiths: He was too good. 

Scott Woodward: A little too good, Josh. Geez. But I think it’s a really fair question, and I think, Chris, you’re—you’ve started us out on a pretty good path to answering that. 

Christopher Blythe: Well, I think that’s good. Do you know, I think one of the reasons—I meet so many Latter-day Saints who don’t realize that spiritual gifts are such a large part of the tradition, even today, right? 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: It’s because a hundred years ago we started to teach that we shouldn’t talk so openly about these things. Where it’s true, we don’t speak in tongues anymore, I—as a folklorist, I’m constantly collecting these family stories of people receiving a revelation and people seeing visions and healings and so on, and I sometimes think, well, gosh, we need to talk about those things more so people know this is part of the wide story of the restoration. 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: This isn’t something we’ve lost and only continues in some places, but I absolutely get what you’re saying, Scott.

Casey Griffiths: Yeah. I mean, you and I were talking about this before we started recording, and I said something like, it’s never really bothered me. Like, this question has never caused me to lose any sleep. And I’ll be honest with you: Even though I work with a lot of different restoration groups, I’ve never really felt tempted to join one. Even some of the really outstanding ones that have dear friends of mine, I’ve always seen them as great but not necessarily the place where I fit in best. Part of my understanding is 1. My perspective is these are all God’s children. The Book of Mormon teaches that the day of miracles has not ceased, and so we should expect miracles among members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but also miracles among these other groups. The test isn’t necessarily what church you’re part of, but how sincerely you believe. So my test is, like, sincerity, and I guess you could sincerely believe in wrong things. 

Scott Woodward: Sure.

Casey Griffiths: But to the degree that you’re faithful and that you’re correct, I think God blesses you. And the other thing is in the scriptures—I mean, early on in my career I wrote a paper about the Church of the Lamb and the Church of the Devil that’s described in the Book of Mormon. 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Casey Griffiths: And it just sounds like the Church of the Lamb, sometimes Nephi is referring to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I sincerely believe that. But I also think he’s talking broadly, too, about this dichotomy in the latter days where the righteous will gather with the righteous and those who’ve chosen not to follow God will gather to them. Like there’s this passage you and I talked about in Doctrine and Covenants 10 where the Lord says, “Behold, this is my doctrine—whosoever repenteth and cometh unto me, the same is my church. Whosoever declareth more or less than this, the same is not of me, but is against me; therefore, he is not of my church.” So— 

Scott Woodward: What was the date on that revelation, Casey? 

Casey Griffiths: This is an early revelation. I mean, it comes before the church is organized, so you could probably justify it by saying that.

Scott Woodward: April 1829, one year before the church is organized, Jesus is already talking about people becoming part of his church by repenting. He seems to acknowledge that there’s people that can be called his “church,” a year before the church is officially organized, so. Anyway, that’s a big point. Continue. You were building to something. 

Casey Griffiths: No, how would you apply that today? Like, do you think he was saying it that way because the church hadn’t been organized yet, or do you think that that principle has broader application? 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Casey Griffiths: It still applies today that if a person sincerely wants to repent and come unto Christ, they’re part of the big church, the good guys, Zion, the pure in heart, even if there still is an institutional church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 

Scott Woodward: Man, so many directions I want to go with what you just said, Casey. One of them is, it brings to mind Elder Dallin H. Oaks. Ten years ago, he came to BYU–Idaho, and he gave a talk called “Witnesses of God,” and in that, he quotes that 1 Nephi 14 passage about two churches, right? Nephi’s having this angelic vision. This angel’s kind of guiding him through, showing him the future, and the angel says a startling thing to him: he says, Nephi, there are only two churches: the Church of the Lamb of God and the Church of the Devil. Elder Oaks comments on that because some members of our church have thought what that means is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and everybody else is part of the Church of the Devil. And I was grateful for Elder Oaks’ clarification. He said this: let me quote it. He said, “This description” about the two churches “suggests the contrast between those who believe in God and seek to serve Him according to their best understanding,” that’s Church of the Lamb of God, “and those who reject the existence of God.” And then Nephi goes on to talk about how they also fight against believers in God and fight against the apostles, and that’s the Church of the Devil, right? So according to Elder Oaks’ definition of the Church of the Lamb of God, boy, that leaves a lot of space for a lot of people to be part of that church, right? Again, his definition is those who believe in God and seek to serve Him according to their best understanding. I mean, who’s a part of that church, right? I mean, that’s definitely a lot of Catholics that I know. That’s a lot of Muslims that I know. That’s Methodists, that’s Lutherans and Presbyterians and Baptists, and that’s even members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. That doesn’t mean all Catholics and all Muslims and all members of our church would qualify. This is more about the heart than it is about your membership records, right? This is about, like you were saying, the sincerity of your devotion to seeking to serve God according to the—to your best understanding. That sincere belief, I totally believe, is met with divine fruits. Like, people actually, when you approach God with true faith, you actually get true fruits back. Like, here’s one more verse I thought of when you were talking, Casey. This is Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 26:13. Listen to this. Listen to this: “He,” God, “manifests himself unto all those who believe in him, by the power of the Holy Ghost,” and then just in case you thought, oh, that just means members of our church, he then goes on, “yea, unto every nation, kindred, tongue . . . people, working mighty miracles, signs, and wonders, among the children of men according to their faith.” Man, if God is willing to give inspiration and spiritual gifts to anyone who approaches him in faith, no wonder people outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints experience those things, you know? And that’s where my mind goes. If God is willing to inspire—and by the way, I teach world religions. It’s one of my passions. I love to look for God’s goodness and truth and beauty in all the religions, and I have so many quotes from prophets about how God is working with other religions. There’s a First Presidency statement talking about how God has inspired a lot of world religion leaders and given them moral truths to elevate nations. There’s so many great teachings from the prophets on this, and so I don’t want to go on and on, but I just want to say this: I want to say that if God is willing to give inspiration and spiritual gifts and signs and miracles to a Muslim, to a Jew, to our Christian cousins, and so many others, then why on earth would he not give them to our Restoration siblings as well, right? I mean, these are our closest kin, and they share the Book of Mormon, they share our belief and faith in the proposition that the heavens are open. I would say that “As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri River in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream [than] to hinder the Almighty from pouring down [inspiration and spiritual gifts] from heaven upon the heads of . . . Latter-day Saints,” and other branches of the Restoration, and literally anyone who seeks Him, just to paraphrase D&C 121. I’m like you, Casey. This does not bother me, and I’ve had to look inside my soul as to, like, why doesn’t this bother me? And I think I’ve come to the same conclusion you have, that this is about a pretty big God honoring any expressions of faith and sincerity for people who seek him no matter where they’re at currently on the path toward him. So those aren’t gifts exclusively for members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I do not believe that. And I don’t think the Book of Mormon supports that idea. It’s for everybody who seeks him in faith.  

Christopher Blythe: Hey, Scott and Casey, I like what you guys are saying. I think that’s true. You know, I grew up a member of another faith, all of my family members are members of other faiths except those family members that I grew myself, I married a convert, and she was the only member of her family as well, and so I think a lot about those ideas. I do think—you know, before, I said, I don’t think everybody’s called to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints right now. 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: Ephraim is the leaven, or—excuse me, Israel is the leaven of the nations. God scattered his people, but I also think The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has access to these keys, and just like you guys do, keys and ordinances, as well as living oracles that aren’t shared by all people on earth, and so— 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: —for me, I sometimes think of it as, you know, everyone’s going to have this opportunity at death to receive these ordinances, right? That’s the vast majority of people in the world history— 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: —will receive their ordinances after death, but some of us are blessed that in life we can access these gifts here, and I don’t think it has to—you know, that great line that Willard Richards writes about those who received the temple ordinances first in Nauvoo, he says, not because they’re greater than other people. Everybody’s going to have the opportunities to receive these ordinances. 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Christopher Blythe: And so I think we do need to be humble about it, but I also believe apostasy is important to understand, right? And so the dwindling loss of truth is something that I want people to know about. I want them to know that there’s something special about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Restoration, which I just want to plug right along with this wonderful teaching that God is big and loving and we are a universalist faith. God is going to save as many of his children as he can, but I think this is really interesting, particularly when we talk about these wonderful cousins of ours who are—you know, sometimes we think of them as, like, apostates. We’re really willing to understand people from world religions that are really far from us, but when the religion is really close to us we’re really less interested in having a dialogue, and so I think this is great to bring that conversation right to this point. 

Casey Griffiths: Where there are family ties, sometimes the contention runs deep, and— 

Christopher Blythe: That’s right. 

Casey Griffiths: —we’ve seen that as we’ve engaged in dialogue. You know, there’s that old statement that’s sometimes attributed to Joseph Smith: The truth is found through proving contraries. 

Scott Woodward: Yes. 

Casey Griffiths: One of the contraries we have to negotiate is this idea of a big God who blesses all people, just like Scott articulated, but also the idea that there is a church that God authorized, that has authorized priesthood, that acts as custodians of the truth as well. 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. 

Casey Griffiths: And I think mentally I can negotiate that space. For instance, Chris, you said one of the evidences you see is that the church is the one that’s really making the huge efforts to do missionary work, to bring people in. 

Christopher Blythe: Yeah. 

Casey Griffiths: For me, it’s the temples. It’s this huge effort we’re making to bring people into temples and introduce them into the idea of work for the dead and endowments and eternal sealing. Like, a lot of these really good people that I have spent time with in these other restoration movements, at some point or other there’s come a point where I’ve said something like, “Do you believe that your marriage will last beyond this life?” And there are restoration movements that practice sealing and believe that, but a lot of them don’t, and that’s one thing that keeps me close to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is this concept of an afterlife where my love for the people that matter the most in my life, especially my wife, not only continues but deepens. I used to think eternal marriage was too big for me to wrap my head around, but now that I’ve been married for 24 years, and it feels like honestly two weeks, it feels like eternity with her is manageable. It’s not only manageable—that’s a terrible word. That’s not very romantic. It’s amazing. And— 

Christopher Blythe: Yeah! 

Casey Griffiths: —I keep coming back to that: that we have temples, and the ceremonies that happen in temples are special and unique to our church, and that’s something that we genuinely have to offer even other members of the Restoration family, is this idea that our family relationships continue on in the eternities, and that what makes life most worth living makes the afterlife a truly celestial kingdom. 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Love it. You’re both nailing this, and I love that you introduced the idea of contraries, Casey, because this is exactly what we’re trying to do right now, and try to model, and I think all disciples need to do this to avoid, like, exclusivism, right? To say that my way is the true way and your religion, therefore, is the false way. I think we all need to figure out how to think about these things, how to think about the tension that God loves and is blessing anyone who sincerely seeks Him, on the one hand, and yet has an authorized vehicle on the earth right now called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that is unique among all the other offerings on the table, and something that helps me is—and I try to work through this with my world religion students—is to talk about this idea—and President Packer, Boyd K. Packer, he articulated it well when he said, the most precious thing that was lost in the apostasy was the authority held by the Twelve, the priesthood keys, and that sometimes we, I think, as church members, really like to latch on to the idea of truth. Like, we have more truth than you do in your church, and that’s why we’re the true church and you’re not the true church. I don’t see Jesus doing that. I don’t see the apostles really doing that. I see them talking about keys. I see them talking about keys. One time my friend invited me to a leadership meeting with Elder Holland in his stake, and I said—you know, he called me up and told me Elder Holland was coming to leadership meeting, and I should come, and I said, dude, I’m not part of your stake. And he said, just put on a white shirt and tie. You’ll blend right in, you know? I was like, okay, good point. True friends invite their friends to listen to Elder Holland, right? So I went, and it was an LDS meeting, and so the front row was empty, of course. So I went up and sat on the front row, and it was just me and a bunch of bishoprics from this stake and their stake presidency and some elders quorum presidencies, and Elder Holland came down from the stands, kind of pacing back and forth right in front of me with a microphone, and he was pushing this group of church leaders about what it means that we’re the true church. He says, what do we mean when we say we’re the true church? What do we mean by that? And I thought, “Ooh, this is going to be good.” And he said, does it mean we have true scripture and other churches don’t have true scripture? Is that what we mean? He said, no, other churches have true scripture, too. He said, is it because we have temples and they don’t have temples? And he said, no, we don’t need temples. We could use mountaintops, is what he said. He said, is it because we say true things, we teach true things in our church and they teach false things in their church? Is that what we mean? He said, no, other churches teach truth all the time, and sometimes we say false stuff. He said, I’ve probably already said something that’s not true today in this meeting, and yet that would not make this not the true church. And he said, so what do we mean? What do we mean? And he says, I will tell you what we mean. And then he dropped this line: he said, if you can find one man on earth who has been authorized by God to administer the ordinances of salvation, then you have found the true church. And when he said that, I thought, I found one, right? Elder Holland was pacing back and forth right in front of me. The true church, if you will, was pacing right back and forth right in front of me. Someone authorized by God, and I started searching to see if other apostles had said something similar about why we might say we have this unique claim of being “the true church,” which I get how that sounds in the ears of those who are not members of our church, and I wish we had a better way of saying it, but here’s how President Eyring said—I found this quote from President Eyring: he said, “This is the true church, the only true church, because in it are the keys of the priesthood.” Full stop. He goes on to say, “Only in this church has the Lord lodged the power to seal on earth and to seal in heaven as he did in the time of the Apostle Peter, and those keys were restored to Joseph Smith, who was authorized to confer them on members of the Twelve,” etc. No elaboration on how we have more truth than other churches, and that’s what makes us the true church, or, you know, we experience more spiritual gifts than other churches. That’s not true, right? We have more whatever, you know? We have a monopoly on good people. Obviously that’s not true. That’s obviously false. The only thing that really distinguishes, and Chris, you mentioned this, is this idea that the keys of the priesthood have been lodged here in this church, and that authorizes everything you just talked about, Casey. That authorizes the temples. That authorizes temple marriage. And I’m with you, Casey. I cannot give that one up. I can’t give that one up. I admire some things in other religions, and to the extent that I can, exercising holy envy and trying to bring it into my own sphere of practice—like, I’ll do it, but if I have to reach so far that I would have to give up eternal marriage, that’s my line in the sand, baby. Like, I’m not giving that up. We can rejoice in our common ground with other siblings of the Restoration and Christian cousins and others in the world that believe things we can get on board with. We can rejoice in that, and at the same time, we can be grateful and confident in our uniqueness. I think our uniqueness centers on the temple, and that’s grounded in those keys of the priesthood, and nobody else claims that the way we claim that, and nobody else takes it to the extent that we do. We are a full-blown, unapologetic, Nauvoo theology church, right, in terms of our comparison with other restoration branches. We embrace the full Nauvoo theology. We’ve discontinued plural marriage, but we embrace everything about the potential to become like God. The eternity of marriage, the idea of reaching the full potential of mankind that is enabled through the temples to become kings and queens and priests and priestesses to prepare and rule and reign with Christ when he comes again, like we just embrace it, and we realize in a lot of ways we’re pretty unique that way, and that’s okay. We can be confident in that as well as rejoice in the common ground we share with so many others. That is my talk. 

Casey Griffiths: Well said. That was a great talk, Scott. 

Scott Woodward: That’s my sermon. 

Casey Griffiths: You look great on that soapbox, my friend. So . . .

Scott Woodward: Thanks.  

Casey Griffiths: You and I kind of have jumped in, though, here, when I’d like to hear from Chris, and so, Chris, maybe— 

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Sorry, Chris. 

Casey Griffiths: Maybe in the last few minutes, could you just—you’re a convert, and your wonderful wife, Christine’s, a convert, too. Chris, could you maybe just tell us: How does your church membership bring you closer to Christ, and how has the Restoration helped you grow as a disciple? 

Christopher Blythe: I a hundred percent agree with what Scott’s saying, and Joseph once said, you know, if you’re looking for the kingdom of God, the key is to find a legal administrator, right? And he gives the talk on John the Baptist. 

Scott Woodward: Yes. 

Christopher Blythe: It plays right into what Elder Holland was saying there. I also love the Brigham Young quote that says, you know, that I ever knew a man like Joseph Smith and that he brought heaven to earth, right? There was a way of his preaching and teachings that brought him closer to God. And so for me, I—gosh, guys, it is that my 10-year-old was worried about life after death the other day. We lost my mother not too long ago, and he was sitting there crying, and I knew right away, I need to open up section 76 and talk to this kid and tell him, like, well, we have a prophet who’s seen these things, and so for me, the truths of the restoration—the way that I can go to a temple and have the eternities opened before me—makes me so grateful to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I believe it’s the Lord’s true church, and blessed are those who find it. I’m very grateful for that. I mentioned my mother. I lost my mother. As she’s dying, as an Anglican woman, I give her blessings, and I pray with her, and I know how to organize people to pray. I know how to make it—so I called Sam Brown, great Latter-day Saint, and got his advice, and then I knew that my ministry as a Latter-day Saint wasn’t limited to, like, being a missionary or even members of my own faith, that God had called me with his priesthood and that I needed to use it to serve people. And I could. Like, what a great blessing in my life that I could—how devastating this moment was, but I knew how to be in contact with him. I knew how to share that relationship with him, with other people, to build faith and to serve, to even serve as a priest to those outside my faith, and so—and those might be unrelated thoughts, but for me, that’s what the church has blessed me with, and it wouldn’t have come in any other way I can imagine, so I’m really grateful to have had this gift and to have been given to me when I was a child. God could have led me to this church at 43, my current age. He could have led me after death, but I’m grateful that he led me at a young age, and whenever he does lead us to this authority, that’s to perform these ordinances that he wants us to have and that are key to exaltation, it’s well with us, I think. It’s a good thing. Our cousins in all these churches, we love them, we relate to them. It’s such a great thing, but I would never want them to be confused that I don’t think there’s something special about this church I’m part of. 

Scott Woodward: Amen. 

Casey Griffiths: Well said. Well said. Well, thank you. That was powerful. And it kind of turned into an impromptu testimony meeting there, but Chris and Scott, you guys both have wonderful testimonies, and you’re men of deep faith that think deeply and thoughtfully about things. I learn a lot from you guys. So thank you. 

Christopher Blythe: Casey, you’re going to get there, buddy. You just keep sticking in there.  

Casey Griffiths: You guys are just so much further down the road than me.

Scott Woodward: Yeah. Nice try. 

Casey Griffiths: Someday. 

Scott Woodward: Nice try. 

Casey Griffiths: There’s hope for me.  

Scott Woodward: Pleasure to be together, brethren. That was my idea of a good time. Thank you for listening to this episode of Church History Matters, and another big thank you to Dr. Christopher Blythe for being on our show today. This officially concludes our series on succession in the presidency, and we acknowledge that we did not cover all the branches of the Restoration. That would take another fifty episodes, but we hope you found this series helpful, and that you now at least feel acquainted with the major historical moments of fracture and departure in the Restoration movement, which were primarily the result of differences of understanding how succession in the Church should work. If you’re enjoying or gaining value from Church History Matters, we would love it if you could pay it forward by telling your friends about it, or by taking a moment to subscribe, rate, review, and comment on the podcast. That makes us easier to find. Also, we’d love to hear your suggestions for future series on this podcast, so if there’s a church history topic you think would be worth exploring for multiple episodes, send us your idea to podcasts@scripturecentral.org. We’ll consider all suggestions. Today’s episode was produced by Scott Woodward and edited by Nick Galieti, with show notes and transcript by Gabe Davis. Church History Matters is a podcast of Scripture Central, a nonprofit which exists to help build enduring faith in Jesus Christ by making Latter-day Saint scripture and church history accessible, comprehensible, and defensible to people everywhere. For more resources to enhance your gospel study, go to scripturecentral.org, where everything is available for free because of the generous donations of people like you. And while we try very hard to be historically and doctrinally accurate in what we say on this podcast, please remember that all views expressed in this and every episode are our views alone, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Scripture Central or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thank you so much for being a part of this with us.